Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

news.slashdot.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 623 posts

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#171

Post by bscphil »

giantrobot wrote: post #154
jrm4 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, this is why I relatedly believe the Linux Desktop is actually a ridiculously huge success. I don't compare it by percentage of market share, I compare it do "how garbage would desktops be if Linux wasn't around to provide useful pressure?"

> I compare it do "how garbage would desktops be if Linux wasn't around to provide useful pressure?" In what world does Linux on the desktop provide "useful pressure" to anyone? The only Linux "desktop" that has provided any pressure on the desktop to Microsoft and Apple is ChromeOS. ChromeOS is decidedly not a "Linux desktop". If Google flipped ChromeOS to Fuchsia tomorrow it would provide the same pressure with zer…

I mean, there's an argument to be made that Android / ChromeOS / Fuchsia wouldn't exist without Linux either (i.e. not exist as they are or in some similar open source variation). They don't stand quite as independently as you suggest here.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#172

Post by phs318u »

colordrops wrote: post #126
laverya wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody wants Nazis or Pedophiles to spread their opinions because they are obscene. I want both sets of people to expose their views to the public. Disgusting though these views may be, it is safer for society if individuals are able to check and decide that someone else's views are reprehensible. If the people are merely told such by authorities, with the "offending" content immediately removed, then the authoriti…

Agreed, the neo-nazis were fringe and people laughed at their marches. Now that they are taken entirely too seriously, the attention and victimization has empowered them to recruit and grow. The deplatforming has had the opposite of the intended effect, instead putting them in a spotlight.

Except that's not quite the sequence that occurred to my recollection. With the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, what was previously "unsayable" was being said by the highest voices, directly legitimising fringe voices and empowering many that previously self-regulated to an extend for fear of judgement. That fear proved unfounded as it turned out and media (both MSM and social) amplified all sorts of previously fringe content. It's only once the push-back began that companies, fearing for their bottom line in some form or other (customers moving, regulation, legal fights) began turfing people off their platforms. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#173

Post by systemvoltage »

jrm4 wrote: post #36

I really think far too many people are missing why Stallman and the FSF are so valuable. It's not that everyone should behave exactly like them; it's that they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software. I 100% support what they do and preach knowing FULL well I will likely never 100% do as they recommend. That's not actually a big…

I reluctantly agree. While its great to have a reference point, there is a whole platoon of people who take this as a gospel. Speaking of gospel idiom, that's exactly what happened in the medieval churches – those who did not follow were ostrasized.

So, let's keep pragmatism, reality and wisdom above idealism.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#174

Post by ece »

giantrobot wrote: post #154
jrm4 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, this is why I relatedly believe the Linux Desktop is actually a ridiculously huge success. I don't compare it by percentage of market share, I compare it do "how garbage would desktops be if Linux wasn't around to provide useful pressure?"

> I compare it do "how garbage would desktops be if Linux wasn't around to provide useful pressure?" In what world does Linux on the desktop provide "useful pressure" to anyone? The only Linux "desktop" that has provided any pressure on the desktop to Microsoft and Apple is ChromeOS. ChromeOS is decidedly not a "Linux desktop". If Google flipped ChromeOS to Fuchsia tomorrow it would provide the same pressure with zer…

There are more pre-installed Linux desktop/laptop/handheld devices being sold today than ever.

For end users, WSL and Crossover do allow for more freedom than if these things didn't exist.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#175

Post by csdreamer7 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #70
m463 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the GPL is Stallman's most lasting accomplishment and IMHO it's doing just fine. It allows all kinds of projects, big and small, to flourish like hardy organisms even in 2022. Stallman and the FSF help encourage and motivate its use.

Question: what is the share of software products released and used under GPL? What good do they do exactly to non-technical users, compared e.g. to Apache license or commercial no-cost licenses? There are obviously some successes, but in general GPL license is not popular - overwhelming majority of the software is not released under GPL and sometimes never released to the public.

> Question: what is the share of software products released and used under GPL? What good do they do exactly to non-technical users, compared e.g. to Apache license or commercial no-cost licenses?

Apache and commercial no-cost is not the same. If the vendor decides to cut support for a piece of software and introduce something new, bloated and costs more. I have the choice to hire a programmer to maintain the current thing with GPL and Apache if it is worth it. That is a very important benefit, I have the choice, many business owners do not understand that, but the IT people they hire do and can use that to protect their employer (and their jobs) from exploitative practices. The GPL ensures it stays that way years down the road while Apache suffers from the MIT issue Stallman had when he maintained a Lisp system on his own. His competitor took his MIT licensed code and did not give back.

Those 'no-cost' licenses often become cost and very-costly in the future if they become popular enough with future versions.

As for the software products: they are still very common. Look at Flatpak or Snap stores. Krita made quite a bit of money on the Microsoft store believe it or not. Paid for and free Linux distro products dominate the server market that run Linux and GPL userland tools. Some Apache licensed web components (Grafana) is moved over to the AGPL.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#176

Post by phs318u »

malthuswaswrong wrote: post #121
orionblastar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship and deplatforming are ways of making the competition shut up. If someone has a different opinion than you do, they should have free speech to say it. Within reason of course, nobody wants Nazis or Pedophiles to spread their opinions because they are obscene. This is why Musk is trying to buy out Twitter, and he is trolling them with his wealth. Don't forget removal from the APP Store or blocked by proxies.…

>Within reason of course, nobody wants Nazis or Pedophiles to spread their opinions because they are obscene. Who decides what's reasonable? Who decides what constitutes a "Nazi" or a "Pedophile"? If someone tries to suggest that convicting a 14 year old girl as a sex offender for having nude photos of herself on her phone is preposterous that person can be effectively silenced by labeling them as a pedophile. "But t…

> The only logical course of action is to allow all speech and let the reader discern for themselves.

The assumption being that most readers are discerning. Kind of reminds of the adage about markets working based on rational actors. In both situations, reality would like a word.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#177

Post by kmeisthax »

_-david-_ wrote: post #88
Beltalowda wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Free Software Foundation was founded in 1985. From there since Free Software has only lost ground. I don't think Stallman would agree that "lack of pragmatism" is really what's stopping things from changing for better. Or maybe the FSF has absolutely miserably failed at actually getting their message out there? The Right to Repair movement has been more successful; there's quite a bit of overlap between the con…

I think right to repair is easier for the average person to understand. You can just go to a repair shop and they can fix your device. Easy to understand. When you have a computer it can just work regardless if you are using free software or not. For the average person they won't see any visible / tangible benefit to free software. I don't think FSF communication really has that much of an impact on the success. Even…

The average person also buys into the standard copyright argument of "you should own your creativity"; accepting software freedom requires, at a minimum, rejecting software copyright categorically[0]. This is a left-of-Marx view: even the extreme left does not touch copyright beyond anticapitalist generalities.

In contrast, right to repair does not require abandoning the entire framework of copyright. In fact, it barely touches it. Furthermore, Louis Rossman is way better at explaining the problems with anti-repair bullshit than RMS is at explaining the harms of proprietary software.

[0] Yes I know GPL relies upon copyright to work. That was the backup plan - if we can't force all software to be Free we can at least keep our own software from being locked down.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#178

Post by Beltalowda »

_-david-_ wrote: post #88
Beltalowda wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Free Software Foundation was founded in 1985. From there since Free Software has only lost ground. I don't think Stallman would agree that "lack of pragmatism" is really what's stopping things from changing for better. Or maybe the FSF has absolutely miserably failed at actually getting their message out there? The Right to Repair movement has been more successful; there's quite a bit of overlap between the con…

I think right to repair is easier for the average person to understand. You can just go to a repair shop and they can fix your device. Easy to understand. When you have a computer it can just work regardless if you are using free software or not. For the average person they won't see any visible / tangible benefit to free software. I don't think FSF communication really has that much of an impact on the success. Even…

I don't think Free Software has to be difficult to explain: "if you encounter a bug in your program/game then anyone can fix it, and you don't have to wait for the manufacturer (which may never release a fix)", or "if you want a feature then anyone can add it, and maybe someone already did", or "if you don't like the new version of the software people can continue maintaining the old version".

Some practical scenarios:

- The game Guacamelee crashes at 30 minutes in to the game for me and quite a lot of other people, but I can't fix it or download an "unofficial patch" (how many games have reverse-engineered unofficial patches btw?).

- I happened to have bought Hyperlight Drifer on GOG.com today; it seems okay, but the controls are horrible to the point of being almost unplayable. Pretty sure someone would have fixed it if they could.

- Back in the day KPN (Dutch AT&T) gave everyone a wireless dongle with their internet, but the driver was bugged and after a certain Windows update it would cause BSODs, and I had to sell a lot of new wireless dongles because of that.

- How many people and organisations would have preferred running Windows XP/7 instead of more or less forcibly updating to 8/10 because Microsoft no longer maintained it?

- How many people wished they could get a version of Windows 10 that doesn't forcibly reboot on updates?

And many more. These are all things a regular person could take advantage of, and very concrete advantages for a regular person, and not all that different from "right to repair".

A big point of Free Software really is about "right to repair"; a lot of people really do want their software to do something different or is broken beyond repair, but there is no way anyone can actually make it work any different. Chances are that if you're struggling with $problemX someone else is too, and already released a fix for it. Or, especially in a corporate environment, you can hire someone.

The FSF takes a very high-level philosophical/academic views of things, as well as a very programmer-centric view, but it doesn't need to be like this.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#179

Post by [deleted] »

jrm4 wrote: post #36

I really think far too many people are missing why Stallman and the FSF are so valuable. It's not that everyone should behave exactly like them; it's that they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software. I 100% support what they do and preach knowing FULL well I will likely never 100% do as they recommend. That's not actually a big…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#180

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #179
jrm4 wrote: post #36

I really think far too many people are missing why Stallman and the FSF are so valuable. It's not that everyone should behave exactly like them; it's that they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software. I 100% support what they do and preach knowing FULL well I will likely never 100% do as they recommend. That's not actually a big…

[deleted]

[deleted]
Post reply on HN