Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#171

Post by adonovan » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

tazjin wrote: post #138

lobochrome wrote: post #110

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia. If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles…

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

I've wondered about that question. Germany is not at war with Russia, Gazprom is a publicly traded company, and there are international courts that arbitrate such matters and could yet find the German government at fault. My non-lawyerly gut feeling is that, for better or worse, the trend of the last 30 years has been that the international mechanisms for enforcing contracts and property rights are now the strongest force in the legal universe, stronger than sovereignty and in some cases even human rights.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#172

Post by chrisco255 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #59

MrRiddle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing NATO expansion in Ukraine and arming them with hi-tech weaponry.

Ukraine wasn’t armed with hi-tech weaponry until Russia started invading in 2014 and then continued being a bad actor which culminated in January/February 2022 delivery of said weapons at the last second. NATO expansion is a convenient excuse but fails for two reasons: 1. Baltics are closer to Moscow than Ukraine and right on the border. 2. It is widely acknowledged that the primary driver for Putin is not NATO expan…

From a purely geographical perspective, Ukraine is far more strategically important than the Baltics, due to its access to key rivers that flow into Belarus and Russia and due to its Black Sea coastline. I am sure if the U.S. tried to place missile systems in the Baltics it would trigger a Cuban missile-crisis like situation.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#173

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #137

throwaway48375 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be that hard to reverse engineer a spice mixture in 2022.

As we're not talking about small cuts of leaves but some highly industrialized component it is not so easy as counting leaves and mixing them together. You can certainly analyse the flavors, but that won't tell you much on the production process for creating this with all the artificial components. However that could creates some creativity in place and create similar, but different (better? Worse? Who knows) product…

Why would you even want to copy Coca-Cola's "super secret syrup" when we already have in Europe several local Cola drinks that are better, and sometimes even healthier?

Fanta is now nothing special either, just a sugary fizzy drink with orange flavoring that can be done better by other local companies.

Coca Cola is just a branding and marketing juggernaut at this point, but their drinks themselves are easily replaceable by better local alternatives at any time.

Come to think of it, banning Coca-Cola could actually be a health benefit for the population lol.

I remember that in Mexico there are poor villages addicted to Coca-Cola where the company uses local water to make the drinks and the villagers have no access to clean tap water and have obesity and diabetes from all the coke they drink, and all is sponsored buy the Coca-Cola and their lobbying. Absolutely disgusting.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#174

Post by neuronic » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

archerx wrote: post #51

recuter wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they got top minds on this. Top. Minds. Nuclear canceled by the Green Party and pre-March went all in on Russian oil and gas.

Sometimes I wonder if the Greens are actually funded by petrol companies because everything they do seems to benefit them in the end. In Switzerland the Greens are trying to be as dumb as the German ones.

There are dumb aspects about the German Greens ("Veggie Day") but they do a good job moving Germany into the right energy direction today. Your criticism is generally unwarranted and the data shows it.

I think we shouldn't use words like "dumb" at all because we are all trying to bring about the most sensible, safe and productive energy future for our nations. These nations have different circumstances and demands and some are more influenced by corrupt individuals than others.

With regard to the Greens, what exactly is dumb? It can't be the move away from nuclear because first of all, that was decided by Merkel's CDU long ago and second, it is economically the only sensible thing to do in 2022. It's what the MARKET dictates. Capitalism at work because no one will pay for the cost of building and running a nuclear plant while renewables are already working and massively cheaper to build, run and INSURE.

I'm not even talking about technology, safety or waste disposal at all. There is no reason to even go there because today NO energy provider in their right mind will build new nuclear plants today (and they won't matter anyway because building one takes 10+ years). The decision is a result of cost and not technological misunderstanding or ignorance.

Most days, Germany already produces and consumes >50% of renewable energy and it will only accelerate: https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/DE

On the other hand, France's electricity briefly cost more than >€2900/MWh yesterday (as opposed to €101/MWh in Germany) due to their reliance on few but old nuclear plants with high safety standards which go offline quite often. France's electricity shortly was the most expensive of all time in the world yesterday.

https://old.reddit.com/r/de/comments/tw656a/zwischen_8_und_9...

Anyone who actually supports new nuclear power plants today shamefully displays their utter ignorance of the modern energy market. It is COST that is prohibitive first and foremost. It will always be a LOSS operation. The market dictates the use of distributed renewable energy, which also prevents nearly all other issues associated with nuclear. Nice side effect.

In fact, Germany's real big issues are bureaucracy and NIMBYs but thanks to the current crisis those will hopefully be solved within the next years.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#175

Post by recuter » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #144

recuter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old people vote more. Old hippies vote harder. Hippies are impressionable and watched a lot of Hollywood movies like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Syndrome And more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_(miniseries) Jane Fonda is a sexy grandma who still got it, she stopped the war in Vietnam and got us in shape. With our powers combined, we are Captain Planet? We were elected to lead not to re…

I'm old enough to remember when Chernobyl was on the news, not a fictionalised version. The initial "discard all milk production across Europe" phase lasted a few weeks, but the last restrictions in the UK took 26 years to lift: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-18299228 (it's also been in the news recently as it was right in the middle of the Russian assault on Kyiv!) The French nuclear mix is currently 58…

Germany is the 4th largest economy in the world with pretty regular budget surpluses. I think that's what you might call penny wise pound foolish, is there a saying like that in German?

Black swan events are nothing to make light of. I mean technically there's also a "black swan" risk of a meteor destroying the earth or monkeys flying out of my butt.

I guess they aren't that good at that whole engineering thing anymore and just can't handle this as well as the French. ;)

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#176

Post by tedivm » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

tazjin wrote: post #138

lobochrome wrote: post #110

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia. If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles…

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

Can you back that up with a source? It's the opposite of what basically everyone has been saying and I can't find anything that even hints that there isn't a fixed settlement currency in their contracts. Russia has been trying to push this issue for weeks, while Germany and others are refusing to pay in anything but euros.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#177

Post by hef19898 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

adonovan wrote: post #171

tazjin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

I've wondered about that question. Germany is not at war with Russia, Gazprom is a publicly traded company, and there are international courts that arbitrate such matters and could yet find the German government at fault. My non-lawyerly gut feeling is that, for better or worse, the trend of the last 30 years has been that the international mechanisms for enforcing contracts and property rights are now the strongest…

There is a lae, ftom what I've read, that requires sqle fo certain companies running critical infrastructure to be communicated and approved. Gazprom didn't do so, the German subsidiary was put under government control (not legal ownership) because of that.

Honestly, I'm quite surprised how consistently and tough the new government plays the Ukraine crisis.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#178

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

actinium226 wrote: post #69

le-mark wrote: post #61

> Germany is now in the "early warning phase" of its energy emergency plan, I’m not sure what the levels are, seems like they’d be at a higher level since the flows could stop at literally any time since they refused Putin’s decree to pay in rubles.

No, Putin backed down on that one. It's not over yet but Russia doesn't want to turn the taps off by itself. It needs the money too badly (what do you think is propping up the Ruble) and also they need some deniability, some excuse, because if they turn it off unilaterally, it's hard to see it coming back on, at least not under the same circumstances

I am so pissed off on russians and putin for all this, I wouldn't care if they turned this off immediately. Europe will handle the shock, few rough months, at least heating season is finishing fast it won't affect civilians.

I know it would be probably very hard for businesses dependent on LNG but we need to move from russian gas fast, not have 10 year plan that will take 30 in reality.

Every euro/USD paid will be mostly siphoned to re-building dictator's army. As much as they fucked up and still are fucking up now in Ukraine, next russian invasion may be much better executed. Let's not pay with our money for it, since his ultimate ambitions cover as much Europe as he will be allowed to grab and subjugate.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#179

Post by laurent92 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

tazjin wrote: post #138

lobochrome wrote: post #110

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia. If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles…

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts with allowed and non allowed sanctions? I think Western states are currently tied to it, they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions, and if we don’t, it would be legal for Russia to impose sanctions upon us.

Currently Russia has no right to sanction us, so anything they do is a further breach of ITO, which further deepens their case.

Diplomacy is important. The good guy has to respect the rules, or at least write them so we pretend that there are rules we adhere to.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#180

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

ganzuul wrote: post #168

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the other does with suiciding.

Germany??

I was mostly targeting USA with that comment.

But germans have also murdered a lot of people not abiding by the societies rules, especially east germans back in the day.