Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

ns.nl

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 365 posts

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#171

Post by mikebos »

vages wrote: post #124
supernova87a wrote: post #108

While having algorithms and computers dictating every aspect of train movements, crew scheduling, resource allocation is efficient and in a sense optimal, I think there's something compelling to be said about having a system that can survive with human-rememberable patterns when such an optimizer fails. That it can fall back on (or have at the core) simple patterns that people can still operate without algorithmic in…

I work within the train system of a European country (with ticketing, so I’m on the top and not the bottom of things). From my experience with station and onboard crew, I am very certain that the schedules and patterns are still very much human rememberable, at least collectively: People have to show up for work, drive the train and many other things. My guess is that the failure is related to signalling or some othe…

The problem was in the scheduling of personnel and trains. The train schedule in the Netherlands is not human memorable. This is something they tried to correct in the past but was met with protest from employees because then they would only have one route on a day which would be boring.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#172

Post by theshrike79 »

resonious wrote: post #146
MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everything else in their IT land outside this system runs off SAP (likely including the actual distribution of the output of crew scheduling) so if I had to gamble I'd say the failure happened somewhere in the integration between them. I have a reflex repulsion for off-the-shelf "enterprise" software. You pay millions of dollars to subscribe to a suite of (seemingly) bad, bloated software that takes more work to cu…

My previous boss recently tried to pick up an enterprise solution. He runs a non-software company that has a lot of custom internal apps - 90% built/maintained by interns. Of course the intern-built custom apps are super buggy but the bugs get fixed immediately, and the system is tailored to the company's way of doing things. The company spent an obscene amount of money just demoing a full-fledged SAP-type thing to p…

First rule of SAP integration:

You do not modify SAP to fit your company, you modify your company to fit the SAP model.

You can try it the other way, but the project will always cost millions and it will eventually fail. It always has and it always will.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#173

Post by ArnoVW »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #133
quartz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the notice: > It affected the system that generates up-to-date schedules for trains and staff. ...boy oh boy did trying to look into what NS uses for crew scheduling ever send me down a rabbit hole. I don't know if the systems have changed but while poking around online I found this[1] doc about the Netherlands' timetable revamp around 2006 and it talks about the complexity of TURNI-- their on-the-fly crew sched…

> everything else in their IT land outside this system runs off SAP (likely including the actual distribution of the output of crew scheduling) so if I had to gamble I'd say the failure happened somewhere in the integration between them. I have a reflex repulsion for off-the-shelf "enterprise" software. You pay millions of dollars to subscribe to a suite of (seemingly) bad, bloated software that takes more work to cu…

Have done consulting for 15 years, understand your feelings. But I'd like to offer some alternative viewpoints.

Buying an off the shelve package also buys you an industry-standard business process. The idea is that part of value comes from the process that you have to shoe-horn into. Some integration is expected (and provided for) but if you have to modify heavily, You're Not Using It Correctly.

Also, using an OTS package means less development risk (not every IT dept has 10x developers coming out the wazoo) and it also means that you have a huge reservoir of skilled labour if you need it. Not just for development but also on the business side.

Finally, if you're a big, publicly owned company, you likely have many financial / reporting constraints. The scope of your non-negotiable requirements may be bigger than you imagine.

I've seen people implement SAP in a couple of months. It's possible. It's still expensive and clunky though :-)

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#174

Post by mikebos »

t0mas88 wrote: post #147
vages wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work within the train system of a European country (with ticketing, so I’m on the top and not the bottom of things). From my experience with station and onboard crew, I am very certain that the schedules and patterns are still very much human rememberable, at least collectively: People have to show up for work, drive the train and many other things. My guess is that the failure is related to signalling or some othe…

The Dutch railways said (in Dutch) themselves that it was a problem with the scheduling software which also has a role in safety. Apparently this is also used to route around for example a stopped train, so when it's not working it's not safe to operate anything but a handful of trains. There was a lot of extra impact because this system also feeds the passenger information so their app, website and information scree…

It has nothing to do with safety it's pure a who is where system.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#175

Post by Freak_NL »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #165
Scoundreller wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There we had something of an impromptu party until there was no more power for the cash register and they stopped sales. Funny how the entire system has ground to a halt and the bartender is still worried that their cash register receipts and inventory won’t reconcile and shuts that part down too.

I’m puzzled by the lack of resilience in retail sales. I thought “always be closing” was supposed to apply to all types of sales. A receipt pad and a credit card imprinter under the counter would be a very cheap backup. It would be slow, but at least they would be closing. It can even be considered a national security issue in the case of food, medicines and other vital services.

This is Europe. Credit card imprinters are rare if they were ever used at all. I've never seen one.

The most resilient back up (especially in the face of national crises) is cash of course, but a growing group of people have stopped carrying any cash at all, and a lot of people in power are doing their best to make sure a cashless future is nearer each day. I don't mind paying with a debit card; I just want to have a backup in place in an increasingly interconnected world where a glitch can take out any nationwide system.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#176

Post by CannisterFlux »

Sounds similar to a problem that happened a couple of weeks ago in Madrid, although that was not the whole network it pretty much shut down the trains for the day. That was an IT failure too. https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4973632/0/graves-retrasos-e... (in Spanish)

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#178

Post by innocenat »

ncmncm wrote: post #136
innocenat wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The automation allowed running more trains than ever before using less personnel than ever before. You want the train company to keep 2x-3x personnel on hand just for days like this? Not to mentioned transition time.

So, run fewer trains. Fewer is better than none.

I am not familiar with European train, but it seems that they did?

> The international trains are not affected by this failure.

> The night trains can still run.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#179

Post by devoutsalsa »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #137
joenathanone wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach' -George Bernard Shaw

We extended that at a technical college I went to for a while because so many of the teachers were downright incompetent. "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach work here."

I had a professor in college teaching computer systems and design. Somehow he got to talking about the NSA. He said that back in the 60s, the NSA had computers that were running at 1000. “1000?” I asked, wondering if he’d forgotten the units. He replied “Yes, 1000.”

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#180

Post by jtwaleson »

mikebos wrote: post #174
t0mas88 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dutch railways said (in Dutch) themselves that it was a problem with the scheduling software which also has a role in safety. Apparently this is also used to route around for example a stopped train, so when it's not working it's not safe to operate anything but a handful of trains. There was a lot of extra impact because this system also feeds the passenger information so their app, website and information scree…

It has nothing to do with safety it's pure a who is where system.

Curious why “who is where” is unrelated to safety? You mean it doesn’t affect the signaling?
Post reply on HN