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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#171

Post by the_lonely_road »

jamil7 wrote: post #17
Razengan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are brazen calls for literal assassination of Russian leaders with hundreds of upvotes on Reddit, but when a veteran soldier confronts a former US president for pulling pretty much the same shit, he gets dragged and thrown out: https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/ir...

I hadn't been on reddit for a really long time (way before all this started) and I logged in yesterday and was pretty surprised by how much war glorification was dominating the popular page and the simplistic narrative being pushed.

Remember that half of the messages you are reading on Reddit are from literal 10 to 15 year olds. A lot of popular media these days, but especially popular media targeted at the younger demographic, mentions reddit in it and the quality of the discourse clearly shows it. Full anonymity on the internet was a mistake. The exact same words carry very different weight depending on what lips they pass out of and every ounce of that nuance has been lost in internet discussion.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#172

Post by mrep »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #112
_bbny wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it helps get rid of Putin and its something we are able to do. Getting rid of Putin is our objective right now. Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument. This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in wh…

So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?

Of course, you are free to make your bed however you want. Just don't be surprised if the US responds by doing the same thing back to rich europeans.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#173

Post by scrollaway »

hutzlibu wrote: post #168
scrollaway wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pray tell, where is the rule of the law not being respected? Call out specific examples if this is where your problem with this lies. But need I remind you, we are at war , with an enemy committing war crimes every day and absolutely not respecting any "rule of the law". When you're up against fair adversaries, it's right to call for a fair fight. When you're up against somebody who's getting dangerously close to get…

"we are at war" Erm, no we are not. Russia is at war with the ukraine, but not with the EU, nor the USA. So maybe do not escalate? "where is the rule of the law not being respected" Where is it? It is not the case btw. that there is a title called "oligarchs". What all of this means in its current shape, is targeting simply rich russian people. Now sure, chances are quite high, that they got to their wealth through c…

> Erm, no we are not

Yes, we are. Like I said upthread, we're sending aid and weapons en masse into Ukraine. Putin has put us on a shit-list of countries, and even called the sanctions a declaration of war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482

It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation. It's also being fought online, over social networks, with Russians actively spreading propaganda on our media and networks.

I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet. But as far as Russia is concerned, it's not even official in Ukraine, so "official definitions" don't matter.

> And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen

ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#174

Post by ajsnigrutin »

scotty79 wrote: post #167
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's different when we do it"? Why don't you agree? Americans occupied a sovereign country, started a war there... why no sanctions against american oligarchs? And if not, why sanctions now against the russians?

It's different when it's different. Full scale invasion with intent to annex with nearly complete global opposition is different from America going around the world to kill people at their whim, very often with support and acceptance of other nations and occasionally with support of large groups of people in countries America messes up. Putin invaded two countries and parts of Ukraine already in a predictible pattern…

Oh yes, "large groups" of bombed afghanis wanted to be bombed by amercans? And if UK and EU supported putin in ukraine (to make gas cheaper in europe for example), than the occupation of ukraine would be a good thing? So it doesn't matter that you destroy a country and kill a huge number of people, if your friends help or atleast "morally" support you with that?

Putin has a russian minority in ukraine, that was being attacked for a long time now, by groups like Azov (who were globally marker as neonazis just a few months ago, by most mainstream media), and which are now a part of national guard (for the last ~7 years). You cannot call it racial clensing if all the people mentioned are white (serbs, albanians, russians, ukranians), but considering the amount of brown people the americans have killed in the last few decades, it makes you wonder.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#175

Post by ilammy »

CTDOCodebases wrote: post #170
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Who said there's no due process? That's why it's getting seized. Forfeiture happens later if it's proven laws have been broken. Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Maybe if the Taliban seized the assets of rich american elites America would have left Afghanistan a lot sooner. >Our response to this i…

> Besides, seizing property is better than more violence.

Also, governments can un-seize property back after a while. It's not like this stuff gets immediately liquidated and funneled into defense spending or disaster relief or whatever.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#176

Post by ziml77 »

scrollaway wrote: post #48
heavenlyblue wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom o…

> Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propag…

Is that what's happening to the general opinion in the US? I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I don't know anyone who's decided that what Russia is doing is fine since the US has also attacked other countries.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#177

Post by [deleted] »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #112
_bbny wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it helps get rid of Putin and its something we are able to do. Getting rid of Putin is our objective right now. Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument. This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in wh…

So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?

[deleted]

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#178

Post by bennyelv »

mandmandam wrote: post #126
dotancohen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then just look at Elon Musk's and Bill Gates' projects. One is weaning us off hydrocarbons, the other is curing disease.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Gates is buying up all the arable farmland, and taking advantage of poor African countries.

Can you expand on that? I'm sure there are easier ways for him to make money if that's what the purpose is.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#179

Post by stef25 »

marcosdumay wrote: post #159
stef25 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeri…

> What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real. Way to lose the point. Nothing on that paragraph is different from the Bush Jr. excursions into the Middle East and threats all over the world? Not to say the entire situation is alike. It…

Everyone knew from the start there were no WMDs so it was pretty different, yes. Sadam, Assad, taliban, ISIS - also total madmen but basically just running around with a bunch of AKs

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#180

Post by scotty79 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #174
scotty79 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different when it's different. Full scale invasion with intent to annex with nearly complete global opposition is different from America going around the world to kill people at their whim, very often with support and acceptance of other nations and occasionally with support of large groups of people in countries America messes up. Putin invaded two countries and parts of Ukraine already in a predictible pattern…

Oh yes, "large groups" of bombed afghanis wanted to be bombed by amercans? And if UK and EU supported putin in ukraine (to make gas cheaper in europe for example), than the occupation of ukraine would be a good thing? So it doesn't matter that you destroy a country and kill a huge number of people, if your friends help or atleast "morally" support you with that? Putin has a russian minority in ukraine, that was being…

Why does the skin color have anything to do with whether something is racial cleansing or not? Skin color is not a race. When the Tutsi were massacred by Hutus wasn't this a racial cleansing because they both have roughly same amount of melanine in their skin?

Are you seriously trying to justify what is happening right now in the Ukraine by existance of small nationalistic groups not condemned by the Ukrainian government? Anything that this fringe nazi group did, Russian soldiers are doing on a country wide scale as we speak.

And yes. Approval of parts of invaded population matters. That's one of the reasons world didn't react strongly to annexation of Crimea. And large groups of Afghanis were in favor of US bombing Taliban.

And also yes. Allies matter. Even the moral allies.

And sure, you can imagine a world in which EU and UK support Putin in the invasion of Ukraine for entirely selfish reasons with Ukraine being as innocent as it really is. It wouldn't be good then.

But if Ukraine built death camps for their Russian population. Allying with Putin to put a stop to that would be good.

However we do not live in any of those worlds. In ours Ukraine just wants to be a country and a nation they were always striving to be, despite being repeatedly crushed by the Russian heel and murdered by millions. And the west is supporting that ambition despite the great cost to its economy that is the result of cutting outselves off from Russia exports. We are doing it for both moral and selfish reasons. Because people and their actions are nuanced like that

It's never as simple as "it's ok when we do it".

I'm very sorry that you are struggling with this world to the point of turning you into a tube for clear aggressors.

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