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AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

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Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#171
post #60

The AWS horror stories never cease to amaze me. It's like we're banging our heads against the wall expecting a different outcome each time. What's more frustrating, the AWS zealots are quite happy to tell you how you're doing it wrong. It's the users fault for misusing the service. The reality is, AWS was built for a specific purpose and demographic of user. It's now complexity and scale makes it unusable for newer d…

My theory is that single-platform clouds actually make more sense than trying to be everything for everyone. While the latter can scale to $billions, the former might actually have higher margins because it delivers more value.

An example might be something like a Kubernetes-only cloud driven entirely by Git-ops. Not TFVC, or CVS, or Docker Swarm, or some hybrid of a proprietary cloud and K8s. Literally just a Git repo that materialises Helm charts onto fully managed K8s clusters. That's it.

If you try to do anything similar in, say, Azure, you'll discover that:

Their DevOps pipelines are managed by a completely separate product group and doesn't natively integrate into the platform.

You now have K8s labels and Azure tags.

You now have K8s logging and Azure logging.

You now have K8s namespaces and Azure resource groups.

You now have K8s IAM and Azure IAM.

You now have K8s storage and Azure disks.

Just that kind of duplication of concepts alone can take this one system's complexity to a level where it's impossible for a pure software development team to use without having a dedicated DevOps person!

Azure App Service or AWS Elastic Beanstalk are similarly overly complex, having to bend over backwards to support scenarios like "private network integration". Yeah, that's what developers want to do, carve up subnets and faff around with routing rules! /s

For example, if you deploy a pre-compiled web app to App Service, it'll... compile it again. For compatibility with a framework you aren't using! You need a poorly documented environment variable flag to work around this. There's like a dozen more like this and clocking up so fast.

Developers just want a platform they can push code to and have it run with high availability and disaster recovery provided as-if turning on a tap.

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#172
The rationale for using cloud is so often that it saves you from complexity. It really undermines the whole proposition when you find out that the complexity it shields you from is only skin deep, and in fact you still need a "PhD in AWS" anyway.

But as a bonus, now you face huge risks and liabilities from single button pushes and none of those skills you learned are transferrable outside of AWS so you'll have to learn them again for gcloud, again for azure, again for Oracle ....

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure any sizable group is banging their head against a wall. Yes, AWS is complex. Yes, AWS has cost foot guns. These are natural outcomes of removing friction from scaling. Sure we could start with something simpler, but as you may have noticed, even the more basic hosting providers like DigitalOcean and Linode have been adding S3-compatible object storage because of its proven utility. In terms of making som…

Heroku did so much right. I recently was toying with some bot frameworks (think Discord or IRC, nothing spammy or review-gaming) and getting everything set up on a free tier dyno with free managed sql backing it up, and a github test/build integration, all took an hour or so. Really exceeded my expectations. Not sure how it scales for production loads but my experience was so positive I'll probably go back for future…

Yeah, heroku is absolutely the best in just getting something running. Truth is most projects don't ever have to scale, either because they are hobby projects, or cause they just fail. Heroku is the simplest platform that I know to just quickly test something. If you do find a good market fit and then need to scale, then sure, use some time to get out of it. But for proof of concepts, rapid iteration, etc. Heroku is awesome.

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#174
post #158
post #60

The AWS horror stories never cease to amaze me. It's like we're banging our heads against the wall expecting a different outcome each time. What's more frustrating, the AWS zealots are quite happy to tell you how you're doing it wrong. It's the users fault for misusing the service. The reality is, AWS was built for a specific purpose and demographic of user. It's now complexity and scale makes it unusable for newer d…

I agree 110%. Actually, I disagree with one statement: "AWS was built for a specific purpose and demographic of user". AWS wasn't built for anyone. It was built for everyone, and is thus even reasonably productive for no one. AWS's entire product development methodology is "customer asks for this, build it"; there's no high level design, very few opinions, five different services can be deployed to do the same thing,…

> Azure's methodology is "copy whatever AWS is doing" (source: engineers inside Azure), so they inherit the same issues, which makes sense for Microsoft because they've always been an organization gone mad.

I guess this, but it's funny to see it confirmed.

I got suspicious when I realised Azure has many of the same bugs and limitations as AWS despite being supposedly completely different / independent.

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

humans started their first 300k years as nomads – storing was just impossible and decrufing happened by itself when moving along. So maybe that's why we're not good at it yet.

Being a renter definitely kept me lighter for a long time. When you have to box things up over and over you find that the physical and mental energy around keeping it aren’t adding up. I wonder if migrating from cloud to cloud would simulate this experience.

Being a renter just taught me to batch my $STUFF I/O to minimize read-writes to disk and maximize available low-latency space. ie. fill my bags to the brim with shit I didn't plan using whenever I'd go to my parents'.

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#177
post #60

The AWS horror stories never cease to amaze me. It's like we're banging our heads against the wall expecting a different outcome each time. What's more frustrating, the AWS zealots are quite happy to tell you how you're doing it wrong. It's the users fault for misusing the service. The reality is, AWS was built for a specific purpose and demographic of user. It's now complexity and scale makes it unusable for newer d…

HackerNews loves to criticize the cloud. It always reminds me of this infamous Dropbox comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 The cloud abstracts SO MUCH complexity from the user. The fact that people are then gleefully taking these "simple" services and overloading them with way too much data, and way too much complexity on top is not a failure of the underlying primitives, but a success. Without these c…

> The people footgunning themselves with massive bills would just not have a working solution AT ALL.

Sometimes guard rails are a good thing, and the AWS philosophy has very firmly been against guard rails, especially related to spending. The issue has come up here again and again that AWS refuses to add cost limits, even though they are capable of it. Azure copied this limitation. I don't mean that they didn't implement cost limits. They did! The Visual Studio subscriber accounts have cost limits. I mean that they refused to allow anyone to use this feature in PayG accounts.

Let me give you a practical example: If I host a blog on some piece of tin with a wire coming out of it, my $/month is not just predictable, but constant. There's a cap on the outbound bandwidth, and a cap on compute spending. If my blog goes viral, it'll slow down to molasses, but my bank account will remain unmolested. If a DDoS hits it, it'll go down... and then come back up when the script kiddie get bored and move on.

Hosting something like this on even the most efficient cloud-native architecture possible, such as a static site on an S3 bucket or Azure Storage Account is wildly dangerous. There is literally nothing I can do to stop the haemorrhaging if the site goes popular.

Oh... set up some triggers or something... you're about to say, right? The billing portal has a multi-day delay on it! You can bleed $10K per hour and not have a clue that this is going on.

And even if you know... then what? There's no "off" button! Seriously, try looking for "stop" buttons on anything that's not a VM in the public cloud. S3 buckets and Storage Accounts certainly don't have anything like that. At best, you could implement a firewall rule or something, but each and every service has a unique and special way of implementing a "stop bleeding!" button.

I don't have time for this, and I can't wear the risk.

This is why the cloud -- as it is right now -- is just too dangerous for most people. The abstractions it provides aren't just leaky, the hole has razor-sharp edges that has cut the hands of many people that think that it works just like on-prem but simpler.

Re: AWS S3: Sometimes you should press the $100k button

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroku did so much right. I recently was toying with some bot frameworks (think Discord or IRC, nothing spammy or review-gaming) and getting everything set up on a free tier dyno with free managed sql backing it up, and a github test/build integration, all took an hour or so. Really exceeded my expectations. Not sure how it scales for production loads but my experience was so positive I'll probably go back for future…

Yeah, heroku is absolutely the best in just getting something running. Truth is most projects don't ever have to scale, either because they are hobby projects, or cause they just fail. Heroku is the simplest platform that I know to just quickly test something. If you do find a good market fit and then need to scale, then sure, use some time to get out of it. But for proof of concepts, rapid iteration, etc. Heroku is…

I’ll argue that Fly.io is beginning to meet that need in a lot of ways, especially with managed Postgres now.
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