The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#171

Post by hammock » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

gglitch wrote: post #165

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. I'm sympathetic to your point (and I love to play piano), but I can't help but ask, if we slightly reword your claim: would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Edit, to be clear: I'm not talking about the piano, or surface transm…

48 million Americans get food poisoning every year, many dying. Are you going to stop cooking for your family and friends?

Re: The case against masks at school

#172

Post by hydrok9 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

mh- wrote: post #167

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

Genuine question- how is that actually possible? Surely there is, at minimum, an unstated variable here like "effort required to inhale the same volume of air"? Or the composition of the air? I'm not an expert in this area, but as someone who "feels" like I'm getting less oxygen and is willing to consider that my body is tricking me, help me understand. edit: I shouldn't have to say this, but I'll mention I'm vaccina…

There is no way that you are not having your intake of air restricted by putting a piece of cloth or fabric over your face. For the average person it probably doesn't make a difference in the way their body or mind works. But small changes can and do make a huge difference in people who are not neurotypical, or have breathing issues due to their sinuses.

Re: The case against masks at school

#173

Post by wrycoder » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #133

nradov wrote: post #121

There is no valid scientific or medical basis to mandate masks at school. It's pure scientism and politics. For anyone who believes that mask mandates should continue please take the time to educate yourself by listening to this panel discussion by a group of leading physicians. UCSF professor and infectious disease expert Dr. Monica Gandhi explains the current science very clearly. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-par…

What? Do masks reduce infection rates? If yes, mandates work. If no, mandates don’t. Spoiler: they do. [0] This is pants-on-head stupid, and has nothing at all to do with politics. Mandates increase adoption rates of measures that are proven to help, and trying to manipulate the situation to say otherwise is the problem, not the mandate. Anyone opposing masking in schools at this point is literally choosing to risk k…

Exec summary: N95s work. Others, not so much, and less than we’ve been claiming up until now.

Re: The case against masks at school

#174

Post by mh- » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

hydrok9 wrote: post #163

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

I do not want to seek to diminish your very real belief that my issues are not real. But they are. My panic attacks in public started when I had to wear masks. When I am anxious or stressed, my breathing shallows. When this happens and I am wearing a mask, i have even less airflow coming in. I have tested this by simply lowering my mask, and examining how much air enters my nasal cavity. It is a huge difference. Or,…

I wonder if the shallowed breathing is a physiological response that only some of us experience while wearing masks. It could explain why there are two very different experiences for people when masked.

I fortunately don't experience panic attacks from wearing a mask, but I will consistently get a headache from wearing one. And it's the same-feeling kind of headache I get from being in another enclosed space without air circulation.

Re: The case against masks at school

#175

Post by TameAntelope » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #166

TameAntelope wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not apply to "normal" cloth masks, and it's deliberately misleading to say otherwise, because if it were true about "normal" cloth masks, then these masks would not be more breathable.

I don’t know how to be more clear that the disclaimer is the same than to link you to a site selling normal cloth masks with the exact same disclaimer.

And I don't know how to be more clear that the disclaimer is not the only set of facts in this situation.

Re: The case against masks at school

#176

Post by davidw » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

Auracle wrote: post #108

jimmyswimmy wrote: post #75

An interesting article. I was recently unimpressed by the new Virginia governor's first action to reaching the mandate on masks in schools. My county has elected to retain its own mask mandate. At first blush a mask mandate is generally a public good. I keep my germs to myself, you keep yours too yourself, and we don't get the flu, or a cold, or COVID, whatever. And so for me despite not living wearing a mask I have…

A large portion of people wear cloth masks, which are largely ineffective. In addition, you’re talking about a group of 20+ people being in close proximity for at least an hour. (Most) masks are only going to reduce the number of viruses spread, so it might buy you a little extra time around someone that’s infected - but at some point enough will get through.

In the US, at least. In countries like Italy, they mostly wear surgical masks and have started a broader push for FFP2 masks. I find this kind of bizarre - the US has a lot more money than a place like Italy, but I guess they cared more about trying to layer some preventative measures instead of turning crappy cloth masks into some sort of weird self-expression thing.

Re: The case against masks at school

#177

Post by buzzert » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

Blood-oxygen level is not relevant when it comes to mental well-being. I have the exact same problem as the parent commenter. I've tried exercising with a mask (cloth and surgical), and it feels like getting waterboarded (because the mask inevitably becomes soaked in sweat).

It causes a great amount of anxiety for me, and literally feels like torture. I don't care about what lung volume/blood oxygen "studies" say.

Re: The case against masks at school

#178

Post by mh- » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

hydrok9 wrote: post #172

mh- wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question- how is that actually possible? Surely there is, at minimum, an unstated variable here like "effort required to inhale the same volume of air"? Or the composition of the air? I'm not an expert in this area, but as someone who "feels" like I'm getting less oxygen and is willing to consider that my body is tricking me, help me understand. edit: I shouldn't have to say this, but I'll mention I'm vaccina…

There is no way that you are not having your intake of air restricted by putting a piece of cloth or fabric over your face. For the average person it probably doesn't make a difference in the way their body or mind works. But small changes can and do make a huge difference in people who are not neurotypical, or have breathing issues due to their sinuses.

That is my assertion as well. The simple physics of it require that filtering air effectively will reduce the air-for-effort. If you're not experiencing this, you're pulling air from around the sides of your mask.

(Note that not noticing it is not the same as not experiencing it.)

Re: The case against masks at school

#179

Post by jdminhbg » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #141

nradov wrote: post #121

There is no valid scientific or medical basis to mandate masks at school. It's pure scientism and politics. For anyone who believes that mask mandates should continue please take the time to educate yourself by listening to this panel discussion by a group of leading physicians. UCSF professor and infectious disease expert Dr. Monica Gandhi explains the current science very clearly. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-par…

Monica Gandhi has been incorrectly predicting the end of the pandemic for quite some time. Long thread with video examples here: https://twitter.com/KindAndUnblind/status/147038993167988326... For example: June 29, 2021: "I actually do not wear masks unless the business asks me to, bc I feel really protected by my vaccine, and I also feel that I can't spread it to others...these vaccines are effective against variant…

> For example: June 29, 2021: "I actually do not wear masks unless the business asks me to, bc I feel really protected by my vaccine, and I also feel that I can't spread it to others...these vaccines are effective against variants, they make it so that you can't transmit..."

That was exactly the CDC’s publicly stated view at the time. Pre-Delta, it was to a first approximation true. Citing this as if it’s evidence of her spreading misinformation is exceptionally dishonest.

Re: The case against masks at school

#180

Post by u801e » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

It appears that the article is looking at vaccination in addition to mask usage. There are many areas of the US where vaccination percentages are relatively low and vaccination percentage of children between the ages of 5 to 11 are even lower.

While children may not wear masks correctly, at a population level, it stands to reason that wearing masks will reduce the chance of transmission. Just like condoms have a theoretical effectiveness of 98% when used properly, but real world use shows an effectiveness rate of 82%, mask usage should still reduce transmission, but not to the extent that they would given proper use. But that doesn't mean that they're not effective at all and there's no need to use them. Looking at it from a population perspective versus an individual perspective in terms of transmission and the chance of contracting the disease, they should still have some beneficial effect.

The other part of the equation is the use of multiple strategies to mitigate transmission. For example, social distancing, limiting the number of people, and reducing the time spent indoors. All these factors put together will reduce transmission even if people aren't perfect in terms of compliance.