FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned • Hacker News Board

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#171

Post by kube-system » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

radlad wrote: post #48

jve wrote: post #27

Don't know about different Jurisdictions, but from where I am - this has NO legal binding whatsoever. We have those gov issued digital, invisible signatures for that, embedded in our personal ID card. Whatever is properly signed with digital signature, the printed out page bears no legal force. Anyway, businesses still like to do it this way ("Signing" pdf by applying some pixels). I wonder if it is just an inconveni…

I'm in the US and as far as I know, a digital signature is completely valid. [edit: ~it's the same way here.~ Misinterpreted parent comment.] Yet Ford repeatedly insisted I print out the documents, sign them, and scan them. I tried a digital signature anyway - and they called me out on it.

When companies ask for signatures to be done in a certain way, it’s often not because those things are a requirement to be a valid contract under the law, but because they want more evidence to support them should the contract be brought into question in court.

You could theoretically, in some cases, run a business on nothing but verbal contracts, but you would be foolish to do so because you’d have difficulty proving anything if it were disputed.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#172

Post by davchana » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

yason wrote: post #156

kube-system wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to authenticate residency, and while it’s not a great system, there also isn’t any better alternatives.

When you move to a new state, I suppose you don't fill in a bunch of forms to register yourself as a resident in the state then? So that when DMV and other institutions ask for residency they could just check back in the states records (or have you bring a copy of the state's residency certificate) ? The state surely must know how to tax you, and thus they need to know who you are and that you're a resident in the st…

> check back in the state

I wish, but I don't think each of many departments talk or share individual's personal data between them, unless its collections or something. Like, DMV would not have access to one's tax status or details, and tax one's might not know one's driving license details. I wish the willpower & technology increases to make it happen.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#173

Post by sillystuff » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #113

cpitman wrote: post #95

I had another version of this at the DMV. They needed to see bills that offered proof of my residence (ie power/water/etc). Turns out they wanted them to be mailed to you, which wasn't going to work because I do paperless billing for everything. So I printed them out and tri-folded them as if it had been in an envelope. People in front of me in line got turned away for using printed bills, but mine worked just fine.

Love this. Also why does the DMV need a proof of residence? What if you live in a van?

If you do not have a physical address (e.g., live on a boat / in an RV), our local DMV will tell you to use the street address of a local homeless shelter.

This probably won't get you past the requirement of utility bills in your name at that address to get a "Real ID" that allows domestic flights without a passport, though.

Same thing for getting a PO box, you need a physical address first. The post office will tell you the same thing, to use the address of a homeless shelter.

The folks writing these laws do not live in vans, and do not care, nor even think about the impact of their actions on folks with alternative living arrangements / folks poorer than they are.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#174

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

heartbreak wrote: post #116

tombert wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should probably do that. I've always hesitated because the paranoid part of me thinks they'll catch on to it being digital if I have to sign in ten different places and they see that the signature is literally identical for each one. My Krita solution, while annoying, allows for me to have a slightly different signature for each one, for each form I sign, allowing it to pass all but the most judicious level of fore…

I have three different signatures and a several versions of my initials loaded into Preview.app for use in signing PDFs because I don't want them all to look the same.

Preview is a killer app and it gets me though all sorts of situations., document signing (and doctoring), and PDF manipulation first and foremost.

Combined with notes.app which has some very nice features (document scan, share, to-do lists, reliable sync, adding of files, search etc) it is Apple at its best.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#175

Post by kube-system » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

cdcarter wrote: post #167

yason wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you move to a new state, I suppose you don't fill in a bunch of forms to register yourself as a resident in the state then? So that when DMV and other institutions ask for residency they could just check back in the states records (or have you bring a copy of the state's residency certificate) ? The state surely must know how to tax you, and thus they need to know who you are and that you're a resident in the st…

In the US, no, you don't need to fill out any forms to register yourself as a resident. The closest is probably moving your drivers license registration, which many people wait years to do after moving. Other than that, you generally prove residency by showing (as GP mentioned) bills mailed to you, or a copy of your lease. You're responsible for filing your own state taxes based on when/how/where you worked.

> The closest is probably moving your drivers license registration, which many people wait years to do after moving.

Most states do require by law that you do this in a very short period of time after moving. (Although yes, it is not uncommon for people to violate this)

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#176

Post by davchana » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

I made a font of my 3/4 variations of signature, some initials, and personal logos, total about 10 characters, all mapped to A,B,C etc..

When I need to sign something & print, I use that font in pdf; or use Rand & Char formula is excel.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#177

Post by kube-system » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #161

kube-system wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to authenticate residency, and while it’s not a great system, there also isn’t any better alternatives.

But given how easy it is to foil, I don't understand what it "authenticates". If you wanted to truly authenticate residency or at the very least prove that someone has access to the mailbox, sending them a one-time auth code per mail would be a better idea rather than relying on third-party services where people may use paperless billing for convenience.

I explicitly said it was not good authentication. :)

Mailing someone a code would be more secure but, to the parents point, would be even more onerous of a process for people to comply with.

Some comments above suggested above that this is an intentionally burdensome process, but to the contrary, bringing in a bill is one of the least burdensome ways to authenticate residency.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#178

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

moralestapia wrote: post #61

rootusrootus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preview has to be one of the most under-appreciated apps on MacOS. It implements so much handy everyday functionality that requires third-party software on Windows. Or did, last time I used Windows (admittedly some time ago).

Preview has an odd selection of functions, though. On one hand it allows you to do plenty of these functions that you mention, but otoh misses on very trivial stuff like "I'd like to make my image a bit larger so I could paste another one next to it".

Isn’t that just on the menu > adjust image size?

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#179

Post by adrr » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

xur17 wrote: post #89

tombert wrote: post #32

I really hate dealing with my printer (or any printer for that matter), so I make pretty liberal use of my drawing tablet at this point. I import the PDF into Krita, use the ballpoint pen brush, and sign. I export to PNG, then use an imagemagick script to rotate it some random number between 1-3 degrees, and add noise onto it to look like a scan. It's a pain, but it's still less annoying than dealing with a printer.

I have a png of my signature, and I just paste it into the pdf, and submit that. Haven't run into a complaint yet, and I don't have to print anything.

I did my refi using that method till they realized i was using a digitized copy and sent over a person to collect wet signatures from me.

Re: FalsiScan: Make it look like a PDF has been hand signed and scanned

#180

Post by Nextgrid » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #177

Nextgrid wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But given how easy it is to foil, I don't understand what it "authenticates". If you wanted to truly authenticate residency or at the very least prove that someone has access to the mailbox, sending them a one-time auth code per mail would be a better idea rather than relying on third-party services where people may use paperless billing for convenience.

I explicitly said it was not good authentication. :) Mailing someone a code would be more secure but, to the parents point, would be even more onerous of a process for people to comply with. Some comments above suggested above that this is an intentionally burdensome process, but to the contrary, bringing in a bill is one of the least burdensome ways to authenticate residency.

> bringing in a bill is one of the least burdensome ways to authenticate residency

My problem with this is how is the recipient supposed to authenticate said bill. Now we're talking about bringing a paper bill vs a printed one (or "faking" a paper bill by creasing/folding the printed one), but the real threat is fraudsters completely making up a fake bill to begin with. Unless the recipient has a relationship with the company that issues the bills, there is no way for them to verify whether the bill is real in the first place, making the whole endeavor pointless and only inconveniencing legitimate users.