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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#171

Post by ars »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #127
ars wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the vaccine is for. And if you're really concerned about spring break, then add all these restrictions 2 weeks before spring break.

Do you not understand “vulnerable population”? There are actually people that the vaccines won’t help. They are immunocompromised. They can only be protected by high vaccination rates and zero exposure to Covid.

So your plan is to harm millions in order to protect tens?

People who are immunocompromised have a tough life, but we can't shut down the world for them. COVID is here to stay. Forever. You can't shut the world down forever.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#172

Post by throwaway5752 »

bagacrap wrote: post #71
ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

That completely shifts the blame to bureaucracies, and that isn't fair. Loans are where they are because students prefer newer dorms, amenities, programs, and research opportunities. Student competition leads to prestige, leads to demand from employers for graduates from a specific institution. It is a self-reinforcing dynamic.

The fact student loads have special bankruptcy treatment is bad. But absent Sallie Mae (or Navient, whatever it is now) students would be paying whatever Harvard or Stanford asked, and that would determine pricing for the next tier of schools.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#173

Post by long_time_gone »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #134
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #108

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing , right? America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of course true to some extent, but they really put it on a pedestal there. Com…

> after all we want humanity to be advancing, right? I don't know how much our reams of communications, generic business and English majors are advancing humanity. (Granted, I studied finance [and engineering] in undergrad.)

Communicating with eachother, knowledge of business, and understanding language seem like things we would want more of in society. Not sure why they would be demonized. Is the goal of higher-education to promote learning and build a well-rounded citizenry or to create worker drones?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#174

Post by VampireWillow »

nradov wrote: post #160
taylodl wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative? Wait for this to "blow over"? We've been waiting for two years now. Maybe omicron will be it. Or maybe not. We simply don't know. One thing we do know from past experience is those opting-out of college or putting their degree on "pause" rarely return to complete their degree. You simply reach a point where you're focusing on your career, maybe start a family, and so forth and the next thing y…

The better alternative is to immediately return all students and staff to full in-person education with no mandates or restrictions. Yes that will incur some small but acceptable level of additional risk.

Your comment is the epitome of "some of you will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make".

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#175

Post by treis »

syki wrote: post #72
treis wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is outrageous if true It's not true.

Consider that some colleges asked students to sign liability waivers to go back to the classroom. I don’t have the memorandum the chancellor sent to us at the beginning of the pandemic so I can’t prove that my statement is truthful but it does appear plausible given that some colleges asked students to sign waivers. I don’t know if the rules that my system put in place at the beginning of the pandemic are still in fo…

And yet we are 2 years into the pandemic with 0 successful lawsuits over personal liability for poor cleaning. There's just no realistic legal liability in the situation described.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#176

Post by leetcrew »

Afforess wrote: post #103
mensetmanusman wrote: post #84

I hope this catches on: https://www.wsj.com/articles/instead-of-tuition-students-giv... If we can align the incentives of colleges and students to find jobs, it will also be a win for the economy. Let students bargain with their future earning potential, if they don’t make anything, the school doesn’t make anything.

Here's my counter: what if, instead of taxing students after their graduation, we taxed all adults income, then used the tax proceeds to make university tuition cost-free. The advantage would be that more students would attend, we'd have a more educated society, and alumni would not be worried about having to take the best paying job instead of one that they desire. It's win-win-win, taxpayers get free access to univ…

the linked article describes a percentage-based income sharing scheme. the student isn't necessarily incentivized to get a higher paying job than they would otherwise. the school definitely is incentivized to guide students into more lucrative jobs, but that's probably a good thing for the median student.

as for the free college idea, this seems like a solution for the wrong problem. I'd argue a large chunk of students are already wasting their time getting a credential that shouldn't be necessary for the work they plan to do. I'm not convinced it's automatically good for more people to graduate college. four years is a long time to spend doing something without a clear, concrete reason to do so.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#177

Post by roody15 »

VikingCoder wrote: post #169
bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

It is indeed interesting. Most major universities look to maximize adjunct faculty and honestly new professors make much less than you think.

My point is I don’t think the money is going to university teaching staff at least…

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#178

Post by ryanmarsh »

awb wrote: post #147

I’ve been recruiting for US startups since 2008, probably recruited over 100 folks from engineers to C-level. I have never considered a candidate’s college or if they even attended one. The only thing I evaluated is what they accomplished in the last 1-2 years. That meant hiring some brilliant engineers straight out of high school. Most of these candidates were early stage hires for dozens of companies that went on t…

> As far as a springboard for a career, I haven’t seen colleges come close to worth the price of admission.

This right here.

The strongest argument against the status quo is that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

In aggregate college graduates could achieve equal or greater levels of learning, relative to their chosen profession, and cost, with education regimes other than the typical four year state college experience.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#179

Post by learc83 »

devwastaken wrote: post #150
sarchertech wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The vast majority of students don't fit into this, they come from middle class parents and have to take out private loans. Private loans only make up about 8% of total student loan debt https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/stude... https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics

The bill infront of me isnt lying. The amount of student loans is not enough to cover the costs, therefore requiring private loans or someone else to pay it. So either all these parents are paying it, or they're taking out private loans. Or, more likely, the stats are collected poorly as they typically are. Same as how unis are allowed to lie about job placement rates.

The fact that you are forced to take out private loans isn't evidence that the vast majority of students are.

College tuitions and housing prices vary wildly, many students live with family, many students have merit based scholarships. Many states have copied Georgia and have lottery funded scholarships that covers the majority of in state tuition for students with a B average in high school.

>Or, more likely, the stats are collected poorly as they typically are.

The stats are widely available along with the data collection methodology. If you want to stick with your confirmation bias that's fine I suppose.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#180

Post by hammock »

matt_mb wrote: post #105
hammock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College was once to be reserved for the rich elite. But central bank and government policies starting in the 70's gutted US manufacturing and took away most of the non-information worker jobs - so there was little else for the middle class to go for a career except first to college. Hence today. However, today it's easier than ever to live off the nanny state WITHOUT a career. What should the role of college be today…

>However, today it's easier than ever to live off the nanny state WITHOUT a career. In what way?

Welfare payments supplemented wages by about 8% in 1960.

That figure has risen to about 36% today, a 3.5x increase.

Chart: http://www.mygovcost.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/governme...

Source: http://www.mygovcost.org/2011/03/14/the-u-s-as-welfare-state... (the first random example I found on Google)

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