The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets • Hacker News Board

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#171

Post by ahonhn » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 5:27 AM UTC

imoverclocked wrote: post #107

skunkworker wrote: post #22

Every time I think about the Antikythera mechanism the quote by Arthur C. Clarke comes to mind "If the insight of the Greeks had matched their ingenuity…we would not merely be puttering around on the Moon, we would have reached the nearer stars." It's a little sensational but also makes me think of what could've been, if certain paths had been realized in past times, and also makes me put the technical knowledge of p…

I find it to be a good reminder that whatever complexity we have managed to create today likely won't last for 1000s or even 100s of years. We initially didn't believe that precision gears were possible for the time period this device comes from. Sometimes I think about how I might present a progression from electricity and transistors to fully functional computers for a future society that somehow lost the knowledge…

The ancients called this device a "Nokia 3310". While it looks a lot like our newest Fartalkers this is almost certainly mere coincidence. The idea ancient humans had developed anything like unwired-electromagnetics is laughable. More likely the object served some religious purpose though we can only speculate on the type of ceremonies it may have been used in.

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#172

Post by Syonyk » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 6:13 AM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #138

I am ashamed that we think so little of ancient cultures. they weren't stupid. they were as smart as we are, perhaps smarter. they were far fewer in number than we are today, and the library of technology they could draw from to solve a problem was much smaller for them, is all. nothing about the Antikythera mechanism is complex; the math is simple and the construction is that of a machine made many times and made sl…

> why can't we just admit that we don't know what ancient civilizations were capable of, rather than assuming they were incapable of simple tasks?

A quirk of humans CS Lewis calls "Chronological Snobbery" - that what we know and generate now is obviously superior to what they knew and generated then - because if they were so smart like we were, they'd have invented the stuff we did.

It falls apart with the slightest interaction with actual history (even the known bits - Roman cement and aquaducts are obvious examples that stick out), but since we don't really teach history, and that which we do teach is a bit "religion of progress" biased ("From the caves, to the stars, through us, always onward and upward!" - again, doesn't match reality, but nobody seems to care).

The gizmos we have now are mostly a function of the energy resources we've cracked open in the past few hundred years, which were related to some quirks of a small island to the west of the European continent a few hundred years back, and so on back through time.

Human nature hasn't changed for much of recorded history, and neither has human intelligence. It's been used in different ways in different times, for different goals, but if anything, we've spent the past 30+ years finding ways to destroy the human ability to focus in pursuit of profits - look at any modern smartphone app. Great profit, for someone else, because it destroys your attention. Oral epics and such are just a different focus from what we currently value, which is mostly "How can I capture and process behavioral surplus to generate prediction products to sell advertisements?" (to paraphrase Zuboff).

Never underestimate what a bored machinist can accomplish in their spare time.

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#173

Post by galaxyLogic » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 6:28 AM UTC

chadlavi wrote: post #163

It's really surprising we've never seen another like it in the archaeological record. This is can't be the first thing of this nature that this craftsman ever made.

The article proposes the explanation that because bronze was expensive if some gear broke the bronze was melted and reused maybe for something similar IF you had the skills to make a new one, but as likely used for something else.

Also it seems like a major undertaking creating such a machine. Perhaps they had just a few of them like we have just a few big particle accelerators.

The article does not get into how much effort and wealth it would have required to build such a machine assuming you had the people who could a) create the gears with high enough precision and b) assemble it. If you ever took a mechanical alarm clock apart and tried to re-assemble it you know what I mean.

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#174

Post by wildermuthn » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 7:22 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #124

weberer wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure it was a joke since if it does collapse he wouldn't have to pay anyway.

You need to re-read the GP comment. He was betting that civilization would not collapse.

If he wins the bet, he gets money. If he loses the bet, money is worthless,

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#175

Post by BatteryMountain » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 8:05 AM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #138

I am ashamed that we think so little of ancient cultures. they weren't stupid. they were as smart as we are, perhaps smarter. they were far fewer in number than we are today, and the library of technology they could draw from to solve a problem was much smaller for them, is all. nothing about the Antikythera mechanism is complex; the math is simple and the construction is that of a machine made many times and made sl…

If you enjoy this kind of rabbit hole, check out Randall Carlson. People tend to dismiss him but what I like about him, is that he tries to put everything into the correct context, as time goes back. He is not just looking at a tiny slice of what/how things could have been in one domain (say, climate change or ancient structures or math) but tries to put all of it into context of everything else around it & regarding timelines. He also seem to not go out of his way to attribute historical findings to fantastical causes (aliens, gods, giants, reptiles etc) - he tends to boil them down to the simplest explanations (as boring as that is vs aliens etc) and also tries to imagine the mindset and the way the ancient peoples thought about things, how they gathered and transferred knowledge etc. Even if he is incorrect, most of what he claims seems very plausible and it is very humbling to reflect on what our home (the earth) has endured, how much our ancestors and other animals & plants have endured and just how perfect our planet is for us. We must cherish and protect it by all means if we can, but we must also protect knowledge and pass it forward. And then ultimately we need a way to store/send knowledge and life off-planet to somehow ensure we can repopulate the earth if things go sideways (again)(and it will, just a matter of time).

As I said, very nice rabbit hole to fall into. Randall Carlson and Paul Stamets are my two favourite bearded story tellers of our time, about our relationship to our home, our place in the universe & consciousness. They are our Gandalfs. They are perhaps not super accepted by mainstream science or all scientists, but they play a very valuable role.

Anyone else reading this, do you have any other Gandalfs that you can recommend?

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#176

Post by psd1 » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:21 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #119

dougmwne wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would read that book.

Anathem by Neal Stephenson has some of that vibe. If you haven't read it, I'd recommend reading it without even glancing at the Wikipedia page or plot synopses to avoid conceptual spoilers.

It doesn't have tone in common with post-apocalyptic fiction. I'd call it "alternative future", not that it's easy to pigeonhole!

It absolutely is germane to this conversation and thanks for reminding me of it.

I think HN would enjoy it very much. It's an astonishing novel. Read it!

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#177

Post by JetSetWilly » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:58 AM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #127

Kalium wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the argument made that the major factor was slavery. In general, they had a cheap source of unskilled labor. Major advances in industrialization were often driven, in no small part, by high labor costs.

The British Empire too had relied on slavery until well into the nineteenth century. By which time the Industrial Revolution was already underway.

There were some significant differences. For one thing, slavery was not legal within Britain itself, which is where the industrial revolution occurred. While no doubt slavery abroad meant that some luxury goods like sugar or tobacco were cheaper than they otherwise have been, there weren't slaves working the fields to make food and weave clothes in Britain itself.

There's a whole lot of research to show that the cost of labour in Britain in the 18th century was far higher than that of continental Europe - several times higher. And that this high cost of labour is what spurred on innovation.

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#178

Post by dr_dshiv » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 10:11 AM UTC

BatteryMountain wrote: post #175

naikrovek wrote: post #138

I am ashamed that we think so little of ancient cultures. they weren't stupid. they were as smart as we are, perhaps smarter. they were far fewer in number than we are today, and the library of technology they could draw from to solve a problem was much smaller for them, is all. nothing about the Antikythera mechanism is complex; the math is simple and the construction is that of a machine made many times and made sl…

If you enjoy this kind of rabbit hole, check out Randall Carlson. People tend to dismiss him but what I like about him, is that he tries to put everything into the correct context, as time goes back. He is not just looking at a tiny slice of what/how things could have been in one domain (say, climate change or ancient structures or math) but tries to put all of it into context of everything else around it & regarding…

* Ben Cerveny

* Don Norman

* Karl Pribram

* Wim Hof

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#179

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

posterboy wrote: post #10

wesleyoneal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools from that age? I’m on video 2, and it looks like he’s using a bunch of modern tools that wouldn’t have been available 2000+ years ago?

Should shut off the camera first of all. I'm too pessimistic, sorry.

You're not sorry because you still hit Reply even though your comment wasn't constructive at all.

Re: The Antikythera mechanism reveals new secrets

#180

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 10:50 AM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #172

naikrovek wrote: post #138

I am ashamed that we think so little of ancient cultures. they weren't stupid. they were as smart as we are, perhaps smarter. they were far fewer in number than we are today, and the library of technology they could draw from to solve a problem was much smaller for them, is all. nothing about the Antikythera mechanism is complex; the math is simple and the construction is that of a machine made many times and made sl…

> why can't we just admit that we don't know what ancient civilizations were capable of, rather than assuming they were incapable of simple tasks? A quirk of humans CS Lewis calls "Chronological Snobbery" - that what we know and generate now is obviously superior to what they knew and generated then - because if they were so smart like we were, they'd have invented the stuff we did. It falls apart with the slightest…

> Never underestimate what a bored machinist can accomplish in their spare time.

Put a bit broader, never underestimate what people can achieve and figure out in their spare time. I mean as a child I would build dams and channels out of stones and dirt at the beach or near rivers while on vacation, without any formal education or knowledge about waterworks. I can see how this play would end up in things like irrigation systems, aqueducts and sewage systems over time, if I were to live in a place or a time where those things were not present.

It's probably been the same with tools and art for tens of thousands of years. When people are not struggling for survival, they will experiment.