Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens • Hacker News Board

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#171

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

wiseowise wrote: post #99

dehrmann wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote the author, > Triplebyte has a quiz that actually does a pretty good job of this; you get asked thirty or so questions about databases, networking, and simple coding questions ("what is the value of 'a' when you get to line 17?"). I could absolutely see people complaining about multiple choice questions and how you're more likely to get tripped up by minor mistakes.

Definitely much more subjective than algorithm interview.

It feels like the other way round to me, can you clarify why you think that a multiple choice questionnaire is more subjective than an algorithmic interview?

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#172

Post by tester756 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

mrkentutbabi wrote: post #92

I think it is fortunate that great engineers like OP are rejected in Leetcode style interviews. The benefit is twofold: - It makes fresh graduate noobs (or even just noobs in general) able to compete on equal ground on high-paying job prospects. Think about it, if every high paying jobs out there value experience over leetcode style of interviews, then young noob programmers won't be able to rake great salary because…

why startup == more innovation?

>create more wealth rather than helping the big tech giants become bigger

should I care that some startup will become relatively significant and then sell itself once big offer appears?

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#173

Post by tester756 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #55

properdine wrote: post #5

I conceptually like the idea of dropping coding screens, etc - but how do you objectively identify what you're looking for in a candidate without adding bias to the process? I.e., at least with a coding question, you can set up objective criteria. If you ask someone about their work, it might be a good experience but you're also setting yourself up to bias towards people who talk/think like you.

I think that staying employed as a software developer for 10+ years is a good indication of skill, far better than any random coding assignment. Put another way, if someone has 10+ years of experience, in an ideal world there isn't much point in quizzing them on algorithms or giving them homework. They've done all of that before, passed, were promoted, etc. You can see that on their resume, and you can verify that wi…

>I think that staying employed as a software developer for 10+ years is a good indication of skill, far better than any random coding assignment.

I disagree.

Exp is nowhere close to being perfect proxy for skills

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#174

Post by tester756 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #146

As Jensson points out, smart people can grind leetcode, so if you have good experience, grinding leetcode shows you're smart enough to get the job. If you don't grind, there's no signal of how good you are at coding, so it's a no hire. Really, it's on you if you don't do what needs to be done to get the job. So get grinding! Or remain unemployed.

>If you don't grind, there's no signal of how good you are at coding

hardest and most important thing in software engineering is (imo) modeling systems, it's definitely not kind of skill that can be measured by LC.

Strong understanding of OOP itself makes you top% programmer/software engineer.

Add strong understanding of functional programming to it and you're probably 0.x%

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#175

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

wiseowise wrote: post #116

klipklop wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear this but never seen proof. If they are bad how do they get into a position that lets them make hiring decisions? Everyone likes to think they are the good candidate and not the bad one that slipped through…

> If they are bad how do they get into a position that lets them make hiring decisions? We have flat hierarchy. Just volunteer to interview because your voice is on the same level as others.

[deleted]

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#176

Post by l8rpeace » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

dimmke wrote: post #46

gilbetron wrote: post #28

Interviewing is really tough. The OP replaced some coding questions with other questions and if he were to interview a bunch of people with them, we'd get another set of blog posts complaining how ridiculous his interview questions were. "Why is it bad to write a file to the disk one byte at a time?" What are they interviewing for, low level disk experts? "Here's a stack trace from an open source project, can you tel…

Seriously. I feel like complaining about hiring for programmers is the #1 topic discussed on HN. I actually feel like algorithm questions are somewhat of an improvement in the programmer hiring process over the alternatives. When interviewing at places that don't have them, the surface area of questions you can be asked is so much bigger. Like one of the anecdotes in this thread about getting drilled on a testing fra…

Like interviews for program managers? There are all sorts of anecdotal topics that aren't revolving around impact.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#177

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

It's great when senior people admit they're no good at interviewing.

I've never passed a technical interview.

I got my internship at a company that thankfully valued informal broad technical discussion over a conventional technical interview, then from there I slid into a full-time job at the same company with no additional interview. By the time I applied for my second job I was senior enough not to be asked to do a technical screen.

I've attempted conventional tech interviews in between and absolutely crashed and burned! So I'm impressed by anyone getting through these interviews, because I can't do it!

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#178

Post by vanusa » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #160

Supermancho wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You let one bad, he will hire more in the future. When your organization can recognize a poor investment but cannot act on it, you have an organizational problem. Why would someone get to hire more "bad" (for whatever that means) if you can recognize it? Even if you're doing all the hiring yourself, it's unlikely you'll have a 100% record over time.

Most companies have organizational problems. So a system that only works if you don't will fail for the majority of companies.

Most companies have organizational problems.

Right. But we can't talk about that, of course.

Instead the corrective strategy seems to be: "Let's torture some more candidates. It's cheap and it's easy, after all."

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#179

Post by soneca » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

michaelrpeskin wrote: post #162

soneca wrote: post #150

> ” I'm not fast at reasoning about code, and I often make trivial mistakes just trying to get a "first draft" of a program out. If I get behind or the interviewer starts interrupting to ask about the bad code I'm writing I get very stressed and have trouble both listening to the interviewer and trying to address the issues with the code.” That’s exactly what happens to me. The thing is, I am not as fast or experienc…

It’s hard to find those places because they’re usually small companies outside the valley without name recognition. I work for one of those places and am the lead technical interviewer (no “a” lead, “the” lead, that’s how small we are). We do have a very easy take home code challenge that’s very related to the kind of work we do. But we only specify the language to use because that’s what 99% of our code is written i…

That looks like a great process! That’s what I imagine makes sense for the company too (not just from me, as candidate).

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#180

Post by throwaway984393 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

You don't need to have someone write code to find out if they know how to code, or how well. Simply ask a series of increasingly deeper questions about a range of coding topics that elucidate both technical expertise and experience. If you don't know all of that yourself, find someone else that does and have them do the interview. I've always been able to conduct interviews and find out someone's strengths and weaknesses without seeing them write code or fix a broken thing. Maybe I'm just some magical unicorn and this is a super rare skill? But I doubt it. I'm just looking for the tell-tale signs of someone who has done real work and learned things in that process.

The other thing is, as someone hiring, my main concern is just making sure the candidate has the specific skillset or experience I need. The person may learn quickly, but I probably don't have time for them to learn the one technology I need them to use ASAP. A lot of candidates end up getting rejected because they put something on their resume that we really need but they don't know well enough. And some just seem to be trying to reach and do a job they don't have experience in. It's hard to find someone who has just done the job I need done and isn't trying to get some other job.