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Why must you laugh at my back end?

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Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#171

Post by mnutt »

auxbuss wrote: post #158
gaius wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delivering version 1 is very different from delivering version 2, 3 4... That's when the real test of engineering is.

Not just because this is what I do, mainly, but it's such an important point that it deserves highlighting. Working software is easy. Working maintainable software is harder.

I think the article is flawed in many ways, but if you define 'working' software as software that works for users in such a way that people actually want to use it, then working software isn't so easy. And getting from nothing to working software is harder than getting from working software to maintainable software. Or at least it's better understood.

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#172

Post by JasPanesar »

bitflipping wrote: post #164
JasPanesar wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, good point. It's kind of ironic that geeks who were picked/excluded/ostracized in school turn on each other in their adult lives and become snob/hipsters, instead of breaking the cycle. Love and power to anyone doing anything good out there with the tools that enable to do them. As for the fanatics who can't change the topic (to keep bashing) or change their mind.. I hope you can see the forest for the trees one…

" It's kind of ironic that geeks who were picked/excluded/ostracized in school turn on each other in their adult lives and become snob/hipsters, instead of breaking the cycle." This is more a result of our tribal tendencies which manifest themselves in a number of ways: including xenophobia, racism, nationalism, religious discrimination etc... edit: Tarsems

Lol, Tarsemity is something on another level..

No talking until the food is walking!

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#173

Post by [deleted] »

antonp wrote: post #151
radagaisus wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's how I learned Python without noticing it: (I had a background in PHP, JS, C++) 1. Off hours on 2-3 days with dive into python 3. 2. A month later - 'oh let's do this in python!' on google code jam 3. 'python challenge? that's cool' - one night hackathon a month later 4. 'I hate php, I'll do this new web app in django' 5. Two days messing with django 6. Five days and the app was done. I don't know if I write 'b…

>I don't know if I write 'best practice' python or django but it's about x6 less code than in PHP. Just curious... Surely you mean django vs php (not zend or some other framework - which _would_ have been the fair comparison.

[deleted]

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#174

Post by gurraman »

antonp wrote: post #151
radagaisus wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's how I learned Python without noticing it: (I had a background in PHP, JS, C++) 1. Off hours on 2-3 days with dive into python 3. 2. A month later - 'oh let's do this in python!' on google code jam 3. 'python challenge? that's cool' - one night hackathon a month later 4. 'I hate php, I'll do this new web app in django' 5. Two days messing with django 6. Five days and the app was done. I don't know if I write 'b…

>I don't know if I write 'best practice' python or django but it's about x6 less code than in PHP. Just curious... Surely you mean django vs php (not zend or some other framework - which _would_ have been the fair comparison.

I think he compared before (plain php) and after (invested time in learning some new technology).

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#176

Post by nl »

FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #112
drblast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are the kind of people (I kid you not) that think HTML tables are a great way to get your page layout just right. Is there are good replacement for HTML tables yet that works well in all browsers? I'm talking about for things that actually need to be laid out in a grid, which, in my experience, is many things. Grids are fairly fundamental to layout and design.

Tables are for tabular data. You wouldn't use a spreadsheet to design a web page so by the same token a table is just as unsuitable. CSS support is a lot better and more consistent across browsers now than it was even just a year ago, and there are CSS 'frameworks' that make grid based design a trivial task without cluttering your page with table markup where it's not required. There are even plenty HTML5 'frameworks…

Tables are for tabular data.

I'm going to rant now.

It think it is ridiculous that people get away with stating that one shouldn't use tables for layout because "Tables are for tabular data".

What is a table? It's a grid! And grid-based CSS layout frameworks are the new hotness; eg:

http://960.gs/

http://www.blueprintcss.org/

http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/

(And look! Many of these are exactly what you listed!)

CSS has many wonderful features. However, I think the "tables are for tabular data" is an intellectually lazy argument that needs to die.

CSS should be used because of what it can do for you - not because of some theoretical argument about the purity of tags.

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#177

Post by cookiecaper »

ary wrote: post #51

Cold Fusion? No, no... no . > CFML. I really like programming in CFML (a programming language, “ColdFusion Markup Language,” as opposed to ColdFusion, a commercial CFML interpreter made by Adobe). I know it’s not "cool" like Node.js or Clojure or even RoR. Doctors used to bleed people with leeches to get out the "bad humors". They stopped using that "tool" for a reason. It was a bad tool , and better "tools" came alo…

For the record, I find the dogma around tables kind of grating at this point. I understand that table-based layouts get complex and it can be difficult to develop an accurate mental model, but the same goes for regular divs and CSS, especially considering all of the hacks necessary for IE to render CSS semi-properly. I don't know of many browsers that struggle with tables.

While I agree that it's a good general rule to use CSS/divs, if something is taking too long, my philosophy is that you should just make it easy on yourself and break out a table, especially if the layout is something obviously tabular visually.

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#178

Post by njharman »

auxbuss wrote: post #158
gaius wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delivering version 1 is very different from delivering version 2, 3 4... That's when the real test of engineering is.

Not just because this is what I do, mainly, but it's such an important point that it deserves highlighting. Working software is easy. Working maintainable software is harder.

Ha, I'd say non maintainable software isn't working. Just matter of time until it's broke or needs updating.

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#179

Post by njharman »

JasPanesar wrote: post #25

Customers don't care what you code in. Or what your backend is like as long as it works. They just want their lives to be easier. Use what you know, use it well, and make a difference. --- Most techies who have a negative opinion about any technology do it with hearsay and not first hand experience. For examples, all web languages pretty much do the same stuff, and you'll rarely come across a web app that uses a lang…

> Most techies who have a negative opinion about any technology do it with hearsay and not first hand experience.

I've used PHP. Trust me, it sucks. It's not worthless, you can certainly build successful whatevers with it. But, it will suck. Perhaps in ways you can't even imagine cause you've never learnt a non-sucky language/system.

Re: Why must you laugh at my back end?

#180

Post by knieveltech »

gabebw wrote: post #165
knieveltech wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And climbers. Nothing like wading through a gibbering horde of prana wearing gumbies topropting with their $350 shiny new 70 meter bicolor ropes first thing in the morning at the crag. And kayakers. I've lost count of the number of times I've had someone's shiny new boat (closely followed by an expanding slick of random gear) float past me on class III+ runs. And hikers. Ever see a day hiker doing a mile and a half l…

Good point, with broad examples. Seems like you've led an interesting life - not many people would pull out "blacksmiths" as an example :)

I'm a man of many parts. :)
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