Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The World's Deadliest Thing

the-angry-chef.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 231 posts

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#171

Post by currency »

superzamp wrote: post #116
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

So basically, is sous-vide cooking is a very bad idea?

Sous-vide relies on longer time durations instead of higher temperatures. In most cases, a longer time at a lower temperature is equivalent to a shorter time at a higher temperature in the reduction of pathogenic organisms [0]

[0]https://douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Safety

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#172

Post by loeg »

giantg2 wrote: post #167

One thing not mentioned is cooking destroys the bacteria and it's toxin. I forget the exact times for temperatures, but it's something like 212F for 5 minutes or 180F for 10 minutes. Also, why is infant botulism an issue with honey but not other other things? The spores are everywhere and cooking does not kill the spores.

> One thing not mentioned is cooking destroys the bacteria and it's toxin. I forget the exact times for temperatures, but it's something like 212F for 5 minutes or 180F for 10 minutes.

The article mentions this explicitly:

> To combat botulism in canned foods, it is necessary for all parts of the sealed can to reach an internal temperature of 121C, as this is sufficient to destroy botulinum spores …

> An alternative approach is to acidify the contents to a pH below 4.5 (although the effective upper limit is 4.2-4.3 in most production, just to be sure), and then apply heat up to about 91C to kill any bacteria… Although the spores remain intact at this temperature, the low acidity means that they will not grow into bacteria or produce their deadly toxin.

The latter approach is what is commonly used in “water bath” home canning. The former is also doable at home, but you need a pressure canner to get the water well above boiling.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#173

Post by loeg »

awild wrote: post #48
bambax wrote: post #33

> In this way, Clostridium Botulinum shapes our modern food system. It is why (...) jarred sauces can sometimes have a harsh acidic note, particularly creamy sauces that are not naturally acidic. Yes, I have noticed this many times. Tomato sauce is naturally acidic, but ready-made, bottled tomato sauce is much more acidic than what you can make from scratch. Acidity can be fought by adding just a little baking soda.

I've once gotten the advice of boiling it for at least fifteen minutes since the citric acid commonly used will break down at normal cooking temperatures. Wikipedia lists its breakdown temperature at 175C so it's plausible but I don't know the temperatures at which tomato sauce boils. Baking soda is fine too, but it can bring its own minerally flavor into your foods. So I'd use it sparingly.

If boiling for a few minutes broke down the acid, wouldn’t it be pretty ineffective for use in canning? They boil it during canning.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#174

Post by loeg »

ermir wrote: post #81

Botulism is why you cannot make and keep garlic oil, every time you want to use it you must make a fresh batch.

In general, canning oils at home is unsafe (unless you have a pressure canner and take it up to 121C). Canning water-based stuff with high acidity (pH < 4.3 or whatever) is pretty safe, as long as you follow a safe procedure and the seals are intact.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#175

Post by stavros »

brutusborn wrote: post #166
ddek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doomsday cult Aum Shinrikyo made a few attempts to deploy it at US military bases in the 1980s, but were so shambolically unsuccessful that their attacks went unnoticed by authorities. Is a wonderful sentence.

My favourite is the last line of this passage: > It is of course deeply ironic that many celebrities who publicly advocated a clean living, chemical-free lifestyle, were also early adopters of a treatment that involves injecting the deadliest substance on earth into your face (looking at you, Paltrow). If any of them were surprised at this seeming paradox, they certainly didn’t show it.

I love him for that sentence.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#176

Post by loeg »

wink wrote: post #101

> An alternative approach is to acidify the contents to a pH below 4.5 (although the effective upper limit is 4.2-4.3 in most production, just to be sure), and then apply heat up to about 91C to kill any bacteria, in a processed known as Pasteurisation. Although the spores remain intact at this temperature, the __low acidity__ means that they will not grow into bacteria or produce their deadly toxin This paragraph hi…

> Shouldn't that be "high acidity, as in low pH"?

Yes.

Maybe sibling comment is right that the author was trying to suggest 4.5 isn’t especially acidic, but it is somewhat confusing to read.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#177

Post by giantg2 »

loeg wrote: post #172
giantg2 wrote: post #167

One thing not mentioned is cooking destroys the bacteria and it's toxin. I forget the exact times for temperatures, but it's something like 212F for 5 minutes or 180F for 10 minutes. Also, why is infant botulism an issue with honey but not other other things? The spores are everywhere and cooking does not kill the spores.

> One thing not mentioned is cooking destroys the bacteria and it's toxin. I forget the exact times for temperatures, but it's something like 212F for 5 minutes or 180F for 10 minutes. The article mentions this explicitly: > To combat botulism in canned foods, it is necessary for all parts of the sealed can to reach an internal temperature of 121C, as this is sufficient to destroy botulinum spores … > An alternative…

That's the pasteurization part. What I'm saying, is that if you had a jar of food that wasn't processed correctly but looked fine (botulism doesn't typically change the appearance), subsequently cooking it will destroy the bacteria and toxin. There's no mention in the article of the toxin being heat sensitive.

So if you can some spaghetti sauce and simmer it for 10 minutes before adding to the pasta, then you should have no risk of botulism. Think of it as defense in depth - a second safeguard against botulism.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#179

Post by loeg »

giantg2 wrote: post #177
loeg wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing not mentioned is cooking destroys the bacteria and it's toxin. I forget the exact times for temperatures, but it's something like 212F for 5 minutes or 180F for 10 minutes. The article mentions this explicitly: > To combat botulism in canned foods, it is necessary for all parts of the sealed can to reach an internal temperature of 121C, as this is sufficient to destroy botulinum spores … > An alternative…

That's the pasteurization part. What I'm saying, is that if you had a jar of food that wasn't processed correctly but looked fine (botulism doesn't typically change the appearance), subsequently cooking it will destroy the bacteria and toxin . There's no mention in the article of the toxin being heat sensitive. So if you can some spaghetti sauce and simmer it for 10 minutes before adding to the pasta, then you should…

CDC says 85C internal temperature for 5 minutes, but better to just throw it out - botulism isn’t the only thing that will grow in food that hasn’t been prepared or stored safely.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/Botulism/clinicians/control....

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#180

Post by giantg2 »

loeg wrote: post #179
giantg2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the pasteurization part. What I'm saying, is that if you had a jar of food that wasn't processed correctly but looked fine (botulism doesn't typically change the appearance), subsequently cooking it will destroy the bacteria and toxin . There's no mention in the article of the toxin being heat sensitive. So if you can some spaghetti sauce and simmer it for 10 minutes before adding to the pasta, then you should…

CDC says 85C internal temperature for 5 minutes, but better to just throw it out - botulism isn’t the only thing that will grow in food that hasn’t been prepared or stored safely. https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/Botulism/clinicians/control....

Well sure, if you have reason to believe it spoiled (you can't tell by looking at it). I'm just saying, botulism isn't as much of a threat as some people make it out to be. If the article was to mention that it is easily destroyed by cooking, then readers could take the extra step of cooking it before eating to put their minds at ease.
Post reply on HN