If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect? • Hacker News Board

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#171

Post by patio11 » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:07 PM UTC

chrisaycock wrote: post #156

patio11 wrote: post #67

There are many people who sling code who make as much as a doctor or partner at a law firm. More than a few people on HN fit that description, actually. A partner at a law firm is a businessman first and an individual producer of lawyering second. He has people to do that for him. Many - but not all - ways to do extraordinarily well as a programmer involve becoming a businessman first and a code slinger forty-second.…

> stop calling yourself a programmer That's right. The top "programmers" are entrepreneurs. Or in New York, they're portfolio managers. So it should be obvious that anyone who wants to make lots of money as a programmer should join a start-up or a trading firm.

Or AmaYaGooBookSoft, if you're capable of reading a quarterly earnings statement and an org chart.

I have no special knowledge of the internal organization or compensation schemes at Google, but a blind ferret could tell you that good things happen to key employees on AdWords.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#172

Post by Spyro7 » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:07 PM UTC

onemoreact wrote: post #145

Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

If there was really that vibrant of a bricklayer startup industry, then, due to agglomeration, you would expect there to be at least a few geographical areas where there was a high concentration of bricklaying startup business being conducted (think something like Wall Street). Wait, think about that for a second. There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the c…

"There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the country without issue."

I don't think so. If the Internet was all that was needed to explain this concentration, then that would not be a sufficient explanation because it would prompt a new question. If geographical proximity was due to the Internet, then why Silicon Valley vs some other location?

I think that it is more likely that there are a high concentration of tech startups in SV because the concentration of tech companies in SV offers positive externalities to firms that locate themselves in SV. This is not a very good article (even by wikipedia standards), but I think that it could help to paint a picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration

But then, you are right. If tech companies needed to be within a hundred miles of their customers in order to transact business with them, then they would not be able to benefit from agglomeration effects. But I think that there are probably other things that factor into as well - margins, competition, regulations, etc.

"Brick layers / construction are far less mobile because you need to be at the construction site to build a brick wall."

I agree, this is true. Perhaps I should have been more selective with my examples. One more thing that is also true is that a side effect of their lack of mobility is that it is more challenging for them to scale vis-a-vis the technology companies.

"PS: Read the millionaire next door and you find a lot of people in the use that made a few million from those bricklaying startups. The main difference is it often took them 20 years to get where software companies got in 5."

The OP cited bricklayers as an example of million-dollar startup companies not being unique to the computer industry. I think that your point about how challenging it is to scale more conventional "mobility-challenged" businesses is actually a very convincing argument against the idea that starting a computer company and starting a bricklayer company offer comparable potential rewards.

Holding all other factors constant, if bricklayer startups are more geographically limited than tech startups, then it is reasonable to hypothesize that tech startups have a higher probability of becoming million-dollar companies.

Also, with regards to the Millionaire Next Door, I think that it is worth repeating the old axiom: the plural of anecdote is not data.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#173

Post by presidentender » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:10 PM UTC

onemoreact wrote: post #145

Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

If there was really that vibrant of a bricklayer startup industry, then, due to agglomeration, you would expect there to be at least a few geographical areas where there was a high concentration of bricklaying startup business being conducted (think something like Wall Street). Wait, think about that for a second. There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the c…

Schwarzenegger made a ton of money in a literal bricklaying startup, which was a big part of his early success; he built a multimillion dollar business out of it in a timeframe more like 5 years than 20.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#174

Post by mh_ya » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:12 PM UTC

China is definitely not on the right track...

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#175

Post by pradocchia » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:13 PM UTC

Barriers to entry in programming are still low, and programming itself is still fiercely creative and competitive. Just look at all the languages, frameworks and platforms.

By comparison, law and medicine have long since circled the wagons. It used to be that to be a lawyer, you only needed to pass the bar in your state of practice. Sure, many aspiring lawyers did attend law school, but the profession was not hermetically sealed. Today, you have to pass the bar and have graduated from an accredited law school, at tremendous cost. Same story w/ medicine.

So these $400K salaries do not translate to $400K in value produced. Maybe $100K, maybe $200K, but the remainder is rent-seeking. Meanwhile, your modest salary of $75-150K if anything undervalues your product. And this is good! You have a produced a surplus. You are the engine of progress. Yes the rentiers will take their cut, but the rest returns to society and benefits society.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#176

Post by coliveira » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:19 PM UTC

lisperforlife wrote: post #19

alsoathrowaway wrote: post #8

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

+1 for the 5th point. I had to read a few contracts and I was utterly convinced that I wasn't paying my lawyer enough as he had to read this horrible stuff every day.

This is a very weak argument. I am pretty sure your lawyer says the same thing about the code you write.

Everything is boring when you don't understand its meaning. A good lawyer can easily figure out what is important in a legal document, and make smart decisions based on it.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#177

Post by felipemnoa » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:19 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #37

alsoathrowaway wrote: post #8

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

2. It's not actually "the bulk" of engineers - I heard Senior SWE + above is something like the 30% of engineers. However, the age range is off; typically Senior SWEs at Google are about 26-32, depending on what their past career was. Someone who's 35 and of Google caliber (i.e. same intelligence as a doctor, lawyer, or management consultant) would usually be at least Staff and have some management responsibilities.…

>>(i.e. same intelligence as a doctor, lawyer, or management consultant)

I keep reading this again and again. A doctor, lawyer, or management is not necessarily smarter than a programmer. They have to work longer before they can start practicing their profession but that doesn't make them smarter.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#178

Post by GFischer » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:22 PM UTC

presidentender wrote: post #173

onemoreact wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was really that vibrant of a bricklayer startup industry, then, due to agglomeration, you would expect there to be at least a few geographical areas where there was a high concentration of bricklaying startup business being conducted (think something like Wall Street). Wait, think about that for a second. There is a concentration of tech startups in SV because the internet lets them sell to the rest of the c…

Schwarzenegger made a ton of money in a literal bricklaying startup, which was a big part of his early success; he built a multimillion dollar business out of it in a timeframe more like 5 years than 20.

I didn't know that. From his bio:

"Bricklaying Business

In 1968, Schwarzenegger and fellow bodybuilder Franco Columbu started a bricklaying business. The business flourished both because of the pair's marketing savvy and increased demand following a major Los Angeles earthquake in 1971"

"By the age of 22, Schwarzenegger was a millionaire, well before his career in Hollywood."

http://arnoldaloisschwarzenegger.com/biography.html

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#179

Post by kadmia » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:30 PM UTC

pkandathil wrote: post #154

bluekeybox wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many lawyers are partners in a big law firm out of the total number of lawyers? How many of these top management consultants clear $500,000? Even with doctors, to be solidly in the above $200,000 layer, you pretty much need your own practice established and smoothly running (with nurses, staff, and everything) -- not every M.D. out there has that, and the effort required to get there is equivalent to the effort…

Also guys, doctors are saving lives everyday. I would say as a programmer I do not have a that direct an impact on someone's life. I agree a doctor has to setup their own practice before they make that much money. They also go through a lot of school for a very long time. Comparing a programmer and doctor is not the same in my opinion.

Maybe not the software you write but software is used to run all sorts of things, such as medical equipment that could easily kill. Part of the articles claim is that it is the pervasiveness of software that warrants higher compensation, social status, etc.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#180

Post by SleepingBear » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 3:31 PM UTC

Overall good post, but I have one problem. You say that because China is run by engineers, it is on the right track. First, economies are very complex and there could be several factors that are causing China's economy to grow, I doubt having leaders as engineers matters too much. The US economy has grown too, and it wasn't run by engineers. Shouldn't we also give the lawyers and politicians in charge credit for the times our economy was growing, instead of grief for what's happening now?

You also say: "Sure, they have problems with pollution and corruption, but so did the US when we were industrializing. Overall, though, they're on the right track, and the US is not."

If engineers were better leaders than lawyers, wouldn't they be able to industrialize with minimal pollution? Instead, they're industrializing in similar ways that we were.

Also, China seems like a lousy place to live compared to the US with regards to personal freedoms, but I wouldn't go out and say that lawyers care about freedom and engineers want to govern with absolute control.

Sorry if I seem to be focusing on only 5% of the post, I just wanted to get that thought out. All that said, you bring up some very thought provoking points.