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David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

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Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#171
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hierarchies aren't merely natural consequences of human society, but were in fact created via force by force of whom? Gods? Aliens? or was it by the humans within that society? this hypothesis has naturalistic fallacy written all over it.

I assume by force they mean coercion by other humans with a greater capacity for violence or control over resources, although the obvious contrary example would be the natural hierarchy of families, of which tribal and clan societies were an extension. Knowledge and skill also tend to create hierarchies without necessarily requiring coercion, depending on how valuable that is in a specific society, although consolida…

This is a bit of a tangent to your comment, but I still kinda wanted to point it out.

In chimpanzee cultures, the "alpha males" are rarely the strongest or most violent ones. It's usually the most charismatic chimps that get along with the most other members of the group and have their support. Usually the approval of the elders plays a big role.

In some of the Northeast woodland cultures talked about in the book they had similar leadership models based on charisma. Charisma here doesn't really mean just having a way with words (though it does also mean that). It means being able to understand the needs of all the members and having their approval

Whether or not you wanna call this "hierarchy without coercion" is mostly a matter of semantics and what you ultimately define as "hierarchy". But I think a key difference to point out is that these positions of leadership don't really hold any permanent power. They have a lot of influence, but that influence can be taken away as easily as it's given to them

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that was interesting. They actually largely agreed in that exchange, not really "vs". That was possible because of not being people who just do or say the caricature of some particular political dogma. If there's any chance to progress our discourse as a society, we have to overcome the pattern where if I say "Graeber and Thiel were in agreement", people stop imagining that it means they both are effectively…

The issue with this dialogue was that it was not long enough. I think there are very real disagreements between Thiel and Graeber. I think the two stand on opposite sides of the egalitarianism debate. Is this rift completely insurmountable? Perhaps a kind of horseshoe theory can bring them together. I am not even sure that bringing them together is entirely the goal. It would be nice if a diverse set of beliefs could…

Yes, the exchange was too short for them to actually engage in real discussion. I would have wished they could discuss for 3-5 hours and to have some highlight reel of it.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#174

He epitomized, embodied how and what public intellectuals should be, should aspire to: the a willingness to ask hard questions, to challenge conventional preconceived notions. It seems like academia these days is more about maintaining the status quo. If your ideas are engineering debate, it means you're doing your job.

He didn’t challenge any conventional preconceived notions. His parents were leftists and he grew up in a commune and all his views literally revolved around this political ideology.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, I'll bite. What's the single best source for an outsider to become familiar with the problems Occupy's GA consensus process created? The more first-hand accounts the better, video or text.

Just look around. Do you see it adopted anywhere?

I've seen it written that a noteworthy number of people were ruined for life by adopting it.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest potential for disappearance of works has already happened. It was called the industrial revolution, and literally since then the smartest intellectual have predicted mass unemployment and the disappearance of work. Endlessly the same prediction with endlessly the same argument only to be proven wrong over and over.

I really don't think that applies. Industrial couldn't address the same area as tech can do today.

But the argument is always the same. The largest amount of labor used to be farm labor. Used to be 95% of the population.

No innovation today comes even remotely close disrupting that large a % of the population.

One of the most labor intensive things humans did for 1000s of years was making of cloth, an absurd amount of work. That was as well disrupted.

The pace of labor disruption today is WAY slower and the dynamic economy is WAY faster at producing new uses of labor. Hence why we have not actual seen this supposed collapse in the amount of required labor despite an endless parade of supposedly smart people predicting it for 200 years straight.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#177
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no factual mistakes in “Debt” that impact the solidity of Graeber’s conclusions or historical narratives, most inaccuracies were minor and corrected in subsequent editions without changing the character of the book or the arguments within. It's been a while since I read Debt but I distinctly remember Graber's disingenuous take on Adam Smith's famous "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brew…

I haven't read Debt yet but I have a copy in front of me. Yours is the second critique here that seems to be based on a misreading or misunderstanding of the work. You've not fully quoted Adam Smith: It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and nev…

I've looked at that section of Debt again and it's even worse than I remember.

> You've not fully quoted Adam Smith

That's a strange objection because neither did Graber. The lines appear in the middle of a long and dense paragraph from the chapter Of the Principle Which Gives Occasion to the Division of Labour[0]. I don't understand why you feel the second line in anyway changes the point about rational self interest driving specialisation. Have you read the Wealth of Nations?

> Benevolence (mutual trust and an interest in both one's well being and the well being of the other party in the relationship, informed by some knowledge of one's own needs and the needs of the other party, if you'd prefer to unpack it) is needed to establish a credit relationship.

Sure, it makes sense if you redefine benevolence. FWIW, the dictionary definition[1] is inclination or tendency to help or do good to others; charity. Conflating credit to charity is disingenuous on it's own but Graber doesn't stop there, he says Adam Smith

> wants to imagine a world in, which everyone used cash, in part because he agreed with the emerging middle-class opinion that the world would be a better place if everyone really did conduct themselves this way, and avoid confusing and potentially corrupting ongoing entanglements. We should all just pay the money, say "please" and "thank you," and leave the store.

Except that this is unfounded speculation by Graber. Or to use Graber's favourite turn of phrase, an attempt at de-legitimization. There is nothing in the actual text where Smith suggests anything of the sort.

Further, Graber claims Smith

> created the vision of an imaginary world almost entirely free of debt and credit, and therefore, free of guilt and sin

Again, there is nothing in the text to support the idea that Smith saw debt as sin. The only kind of debt Smith took exception to is public debt[2] and that was for entirely different reasons.

0: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/adam-smith/the-wealth-of-n...

1: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/benevol...

2: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/adam-smith/the-wealth-of-n...

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think "Debt: first 5000 years" is brilliant job a tearing apart assumtions of economics you don't know anything about economics. In fact is a pretty embracing takedown of strawmen he set up as how he imagines economists. He very clearly has so much distaste for economist that he couldn't even be bother to actually research the history of economics. He makes so many fundamental mistakes that are so embracing, h…

> The problem is that the book doesn't real proscribe anything practical so it does not actually translate into any coherent political position. The book wasn't written to promote a practical (political?) position. It's an anthropology of debt. I'll give an examples of something I learned from it that I personally found incredibly interesting: * Economists all tell the same story about the origin of currency. "People…

> It's an anthropology of debt.

It makes very, very clear arguments about debt and how that should be handled. Claiming its only a history is just not accurate. He is clearly promoting his politics with this book.

> 'll give an examples of something I learned from it that I personally found incredibly interesting:

And I'm telling you that this is a straw-men about economics that was never true.

Economics did actually think about these things but he had no interest researching that. He is totally misinterpreting the history of economics on this question.

The whole point about barter being impractical on small scales is exactly WHY we do not find societies in the small using barter. Its not that people starter bartering and evolved beyond it, its that the impossibility of barter forces your society to come up with something else. Economist were aware of this. Garber loves to claim how much smarter anthropologists are and how they understood social credit, gift giving and extraction, but of course non of this was new to economics.

Graeber literally didn't even know the history of economies about this and he didn't research it.

Read this from a economics text from 'Geld' 1892 and this is not some fringe economist, but one of the most famous of his time:

> Voluntary as well as compulsory unilateral transfers of assets (that is, transfers arising neither from a ‘reciprocal contract’ in general nor from an exchange transaction in particular, although occasionally based on tacitly recognized reciprocity), are among the oldest forms of human relationships as far as we can go back in the history of man’s economizing. Long before the exchange of goods appears in history, or becomes of more than negligible importance…we already find a variety of unilateral transfers: voluntary gifts and gifts made more or less under compulsion, compulsory contributions, damages or fines, compensation for killing someone, unilateral transfers within families, etc.

But apparently economists were totally unaware of any of this according to Graeber. Graeber himself claims that anthropologist (who are much smarter and not pawns of capitlaism). Graeber reference about anthropology date to 4 decades beyond this essay.

We can go on to the question of currency emerging.

We know that coins were first used in modern Turkey to pay mercenaries, and there was no government there that forced that currency to be used to pay taxes. These mercenaries were from outside of that territory and it was a store of value that can then be traded.

The problem with Graeber is that he collects all the example that prove his point, and ignores anything that might not agree with it. He goes at great lengths to find examples where to different cultures traded doesn't look like traditional long distance trade, and ignores many other more common examples. But he presents it as 'I have looked at everything'. Currency emerging from long distance trade between strangers is simply historical, if he likes it or not.

The dumb things he says in general are just mind blowing. He believes economies believe this:

> money is simply a mathematical system whereby one can compare proportional values, to say 1 of these is worth 17 of those.

Literally not even economics 101 level of understanding. How he seems to believe the Marginal Revolution of 1870s has never happened.

How about his claims about long distance trade:

> You don't cross mountains, deserts, and oceans, risking death in a dozen different ways, so as to show up with a collection of goods you think someone might want, in order to see if they happen to have something you might want.

What? Has he not heard of caravans, the silk road and the millenniums old history of long distance trade both on sea and on land. How did tin get from mountains of northern Iran to Greece during the bronze age exactly? Quite clearly there were many different political entities that you had to cross. We have documents from traders at the time who were constantly risking changing needs and demands in different places, supply lines that constantly disrupted by wars in different regions, huge risk were being taken all the time.

How about Portuguese sailors who tried to sale to India? They had never traded directly with India before.

He just has an incredibly narrow view on both economics and the real world. In his world the only thing that matters is small tribes and centralized states. Graeber has promoted ignore anything that doesn't fit in my world view to an artform.

We could go on about how Graeber reading of Adam Smith is totally wrong and many other things but dealing with Graeber to much ruins my day, I don't need to dredge up all this stuff again.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think that applies. Industrial couldn't address the same area as tech can do today.

But the argument is always the same. The largest amount of labor used to be farm labor. Used to be 95% of the population. No innovation today comes even remotely close disrupting that large a % of the population. One of the most labor intensive things humans did for 1000s of years was making of cloth, an absurd amount of work. That was as well disrupted. The pace of labor disruption today is WAY slower and the dynami…

I still don't agree about the similarity today. Every step in the past created a new layer (if I get your point), by virtue of being new, couldn't be solved so humans were involved to do it. But what's new to be done now ? Technology is wrapping around all layers of the pyramid, from mechanical to factories to information to "intelligence" (to an extent). I honestly fail to see what it won't be able to handle. Especially considering how lame most jobs are today[0] I don't think it will hold long.

[0] I've ranted about it so many times but it reaches absurd levels .. people are not doing much, and the few that is asked of them is ridiculous. Plus it's often done through coercion by mediocre management that nobody respect (causing immense political friction, paranoia and misery.. most of my colleagues delay work and watch tik tok .. after talking to them the main reason is that nothing is working right nobody care, thus nobody wants to work anymore).

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#180
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that a decently large portion of the book discusses the anthropology of money and debt in a wide array of diverse cultures, the idea of lacking "resemblance to the real world" seems wrong to me. The real world includes all those different situations that are starkly different from the current dominant economic case. The core of the book in my reading is not a description of the dominant financial system. I read…

> Given that a decently large portion of the book discusses the anthropology of money and debt in a wide array of diverse cultures, the idea of lacking "resemblance to the real world" seems wrong to me. The real world includes all those different situations that are starkly different from the current dominant economic case. Ignoring the quaint cultural practices of remote tribes does not diminish one's ability to und…

On your point about US treasury bonds… I don’t have the book in front of me but this is a common, colloquial saying among many of my peers in finance. No one wants the U.S. to pay all of its debt, the structure of the global economy today requires these debts to function. They’re basically cash equivalents.

Grabers comments on the dollar as an oil currency… I disagree with that. Still, many investors I know around his age would have said something similar 10-15 years ago. The U.S dollar as a reserve currency is America's greatest strength (maybe not greatest but it’s up there) and weakness. Anything that impedes the dollar as a global reserve currency is a significant risk to the U.S.

Grabers comments on Europe, Korea, China, etc. you mention- again not an unusual thing to say in my view. Debatable certainly, but not obviously wrong.

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