How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams • Hacker News Board

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#171

Post by julian_sark » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

> that bringing this stuff to my manager is even worse ...

This.

While I currently have a manager that mostly understands such complaints, I have learned that even then, it amounts to nothing. Because he can't change material things without invoking higher-ups, and they won't be brought on board. For one thing because that would require a lower level manager to create tasks for a higher manager. And that's not how management works in many companies: A lower level manager didn't get to be a lower level manager by creating "work" for higher-ups. He got to be a lower level manager by absorbing the complaints from the ground force, assuring them that their voice is heard while at the same time shielding the higher-ups.

Maybe I've just been in sh*tty IT companies all my life, but I'm seeing this, and similar pattern for nearly 30 years now, and that's why I'm now searching for a job that is as far away from the potential to create overbearing complexity as possible. Even to be point where salary be damned.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#172

Post by pif » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

jreese wrote: post #40

As a member of a core infra/"foundation" team, the biggest drain on my soul is the number of other engineers that are helpless, or never learned how to find solutions on their own. They never search wikis, look for similar posts on internal groups, or even read the error message from the tool that tells them exactly how to fix the problem they're asking about. When the culture has become "google everything", but you…

> engineers that are helpless, or never ... or even read the error message from the tool

If they don't read the error messages from their tools, they are not engineers: they are idiots.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#173

Post by crispyambulance » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:09 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #64

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do push for changes, such as bringing ideas to the team lead and bringing these things up with my manager (hence being brought up in reviews). There is a self-reinforcing aspect to learned helplessness in teams, as you've pointed out.

All you have to do is say no once in a while. No, don't bring the company to a halt with a tantrum. Just insist on getting one thing fixed a month and nine months from now everyone will be a lot happier.

> All you have to do is say no once in a while.

Being able to say "no" is absolutely critical.

Of course, you do incur a risk and you may fail or hurt your career in that org up to the point of termination even if you're "right". Moreover your follow-up after saying "no" will be judged harshly and silently for every little snag, real or not.

But that's part of the deal, right? It's not easy, if it were easy you'd have dream-teams all over the place rather than an industry where occupational dysfunction is normal.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#174

Post by _y5hn » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:16 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

rmah wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech lead started out by complaining about...When he finished complaining... My manager doesn't know anything about the code, my project, or the release project. IOW, your team has no leadership and no management. Your team lead may be called that, but sounds like he doesn't lead at all. Your manager may be called that, but he doesn't manage either. This happens a lot when people are given responsibility without…

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

I've come to the same conclusion in recent years. What you can do is optimize your end of work so the dysfunction impacts you less and less. Alot of work is really just BS that nobody wants to touch, but ends up on somebody's desk. Someone just has to bite that apple and document the hell out of it, make playbooks, automate and delegate. You can get management support for putting responsibility where it should be ("shift left"), while you answer questions, direct people to references and generally empower those around you.

So either you become your island and power on from your base, or you become part of the dysfunction as a leader. Leaders who succeed in this are rare enough they write books about it, most of it fiction..

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#175

Post by _y5hn » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

geoduck14 wrote: post #109

JohnBooty wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hit so close to home for me. At my last two jobs, I've simply burnt out from hitting this sort of wall over and over. Everything I suggested was just flatly denied as impossible [...] I feel strange because I've seen this same thing for my whole career and I still try fight for what's right when others appear to moan and carry on. For anybody (100% rightfully!) wondering if it's my fault: (1) I've been consisten…

>I think the reality is that this kind of change can't originate from the in-the-trenches folks at the bottom of totem pole. I'm a manager. Please. PLEASE don't believe this. In-the-trenches folks ARE powerful. Really. I promise. I can't implement change if YOU don't do it. I don't know what sucks if YOU don't tell me. I NEED you to help me make things better.

Please don't invalidate other people's experiences.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#176

Post by dotancohen » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:23 AM UTC

vimwizard wrote: post #138

JohnBooty wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hit so close to home for me. At my last two jobs, I've simply burnt out from hitting this sort of wall over and over. Everything I suggested was just flatly denied as impossible [...] I feel strange because I've seen this same thing for my whole career and I still try fight for what's right when others appear to moan and carry on. For anybody (100% rightfully!) wondering if it's my fault: (1) I've been consisten…

>The only times I've seen developer pain-points successfully addressed in a sustainable way, it's because there was a dedicated team allocated to that sort of thing: a "developer experience" team, or some equivalent. I came to this conclusion after watching the place I work at for 2 and a half years fail to implement any of the grand ambitions management had in their heads. We wanted code review, pull requests, build…

  > because they will on paper be producing more features for less financial cost.

And from a business perspective, that is the correct choice.

So make a better business case. Inform them that after investing Y hours on refactoring X, future development is expected to happen M% faster with N% less bugs. New features can be expected to be developed, tested, and shipped to production in S% less time.

But be realistic. Don't make promises that you won't actually meet when the time comes.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#177

Post by alxlaz » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:25 AM UTC

tata71 wrote: post #115

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

Find the/a leader, make sure they can secure your interests, empower them?

Unless you're being paid to coach the leader, this is just work their boss should be doing and which you're doing for free.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#178

Post by Aeolun » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

therealdrag0 wrote: post #137

commandlinefan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I quit I did that early on. Then again, because the next place was the same. Then again, because the next place was the same. 10 places later, I finally realized they're all the same.

Huh? Like what specifically? All 4 cloud software places I’ve worked have had unit testing standards, cloud backups, even disaster recovery environments, etc. and none of these were mega corps. 50-1000 employees.

You can have those things in theory, but they need to adhere to certain quality standards to count on them in practice.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#179

Post by tukson » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:28 AM UTC

This is a mindset issue not a technical one.

At the end of the day, if you're a developer, you don't get to call the shots in terms of what issues get fixed when.

That's up to the lead dev/product owner/BA.

You can flag issues and propose solutions, sure.

If you think the company isn't worth the trouble then quit and get another job, there are plenty of tech opportunities out there, one's that are no doubt more dev focused.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#180

Post by Aeolun » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 11:31 AM UTC

inspector-g wrote: post #59

I’d like to add a #3 to the list, which I’ll half-jokingly name “ruined by working at a large company learned helplessness” My company is small and we have very small teams (1-4 people). One person recently hired has been working at successively larger companies over the years (I’ve known him for a long time). Sometimes he’ll do something like this: stop working on a task he’s been assigned, say “test data needed”, a…

I think it’s more that you’re not allowed to do those things in a larger company. People will feel like you are ursurping their area of responsibility, or you’ll even be completely unable to make it.