Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations • Hacker News Board

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#171

Post by GuB-42 » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

polote wrote: post #140

Animats wrote: post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

> Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] There are so many of them, that they couldn't find a picture of one of them to illustrate the article

G/O media is particularly terrible with illustrations. They once had an article abut the ISS with a picture of Mir as an illustration.

I think they have a contract with a stock image provider, no photographer, and no one to seek out and license original pictures. Writer are probably asked to select an illustration in their stock image library.

I think it is a disgrace to journalism. The front picture is, with the title, the most important part of the article, do some effort FFS, or don't put a picture at all.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#172

Post by btown » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

It sounds like these are complementary solutions, no? Some yards have stacking equipment, some don't. It seems far more reasonable to let them become "sinks" for containers, which they'd gladly do and which would require nothing other than removing red tape, rather than requiring adoption of a more complex routing system.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#173

Post by avianlyric » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #32

spothedog1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone built a gigantic apartment complex next to your house it would mean that the demand for housing in your neighborhood was massive and restricted by zoning. Your land value would skyrocket by allowing apartment buildings and you could take a huge pay day and move somewhere farther out from the city. You shouldn't get to halt US GDP growth in its tracks because you want to dictate what your neighbors do with…

In practice, people are pushed out of their homes because they can't afford to live in the neighborhood full of high rise apartments anymore, and they then struggle to make a living (much less find another place to live). It's funny that the GDP itself is prized over the people who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of an economy with a high GDP.

Out of interest what the mechanism that results in people being priced out of houses they own?

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#174

Post by algorias » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

codezero wrote: post #84

A little off topic, but these ports don’t usually store so many empty crates, so why do we have them now? Are we not exporting at the same rate? Is that even what empty crates are used for? I’m assuming they aren’t sent back to (mostly?) China empty. I read something about the prices to ship out of the US being very high, but isn’t the price coming in also similarly proportionally high, yet we still have a backlog of…

It is completely standard in the shipping industry to have lopsided routes, where one direction has 100% full containers, and the return direction a much lower percentage, like 50%. The shipping cost of different routes takes this into account.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#175

Post by spenczar5 » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #152

spenczar5 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? It sounds like you think this is obvious, but it isn’t to me. I live in an area with occasional grandfathered-in exceptions to zoning rules. There’s a cafe run out of a house, and a butcher shop run on a residential street corner between houses. And its absolutely lovely! I would have no problem with people making things (“a factory”) next to a school.

Industrial processes have a large surface area of different risks and hazards, and physical distance from where people live is a good way to mitigate all of them. Eg. Explosions, toxic chemical spills, electrical noise, air pollution etc. They also need heavy transport, which wears out road infrastructure much more quickly than light vehicles. Keeping residential streets largely clear of heavy traffic means you can f…

It seems like this would depend a lot on the industry, and on scale. If somebody is, I don't know, assembling board games, I think that sounds fine next to a school. If they're refining crude oil, well, that sounds more likely to have the problems you describe.

But "zoning" attempts to resolve those issues by carving territory up, not by requiring a particular physical distance. Zoning maps have boundaries which still have the problems you describe, right?

It seems a lot more reasonable to target the specific issues (noise, air pollution, etc - the stuff you descibed) rather than attack this via zones.

Of course, you said a similar thing too, so we probably 80% agree. But can you explain the remaining 20% - when is zoning ever a good way to solve these problems?

Further - is there a case to be made for zoning aside from moving really heavy industry away from really residential neighborhoods? My city has dozens of zones, carefully segregating walkable retail regions from single-family homes, which doesn't seem so defensible.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#176

Post by jerry1979 » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

aerosmile wrote: post #72

Everyone's focused on Ryan's comments about stacking, and the subsequent win there. Amazing job, Ryan, and thank you Robert Garcia for being a man to take one on the chin (for this solution not coming from your team) and for then doing the right thing. I am seriously impressed by not seeing any NIH (not invented here) behavior here. But why stop there? Ryan suggested 5 courses of actions, and made it clear that we ne…

For those who didn't see the 5 points, I've copied them below from here https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834

1) Executive order effective immediately over riding the zoning rules in Long Beach and Los Angeles to allow truck yards to store empty containers up to six high instead of the current limit of 2. Make it temporary for ~120 days.

This will free up tens of thousands of chassis that right now are just storing containers on wheels. Those chassis can immediately be taken to the ports to haul away the containers

2) Bring every container chassis owned by the national guard and the military anywhere in the US to the ports and loan them to the terminals for 180 days.

3) Create a new temporary container yard at a large (need 500+ acres) piece of government land adjacent to an inland rail head within 100 miles of the port complex.

4) Force the railroads to haul all containers to this new site, turn around and come back. No more 1500 mile train journeys to Dallas. We're doing 100 mile shuttles, turning around and doing it again. Truckers will go to this site to get containers instead of the port.

5) Bring in barges and small container ships and start hauling containers out of long beach to other smaller ports that aren't backed up.

This is not a comprehensive list. Please add to it. We don't need to do the best ideas. We need to do ALL the ideas.

We must OVERWHELM THE BOTTLENECK and get these ports working again. I can't stress enough how bad it is for the world economy if the ports don't work. Every company selling physical goods bought or sold internationally will fail.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#177

Post by chasil » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

stackedinserter wrote: post #86

throwaway984393 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is. Because people love zoning! NIMBY is the rallying cry at zoning board hearings, where whiny people who only care about themselves make sure those Chinese people don't put their stinky laundromats near our nice rich white neighborhood. It's the main reason zoning exists! Particularly the wealthy people who h…

> NIMBY is the rallying cry at zoning board hearings, where whiny people who only care about themselves make sure those Chinese people don't put their stinky laundromats near our nice rich white neighborhood. Yes some of prefer zoning to "mixed" and "diverse" neighborhoods. What's wrong with me not willing to see a laundromat or an office building next to my house? Or what's wrong with me willing to live in quiet fam…

Here is another zoning related video, referencing home-based business fronts in upscale neighborhoods.

https://youtu.be/wzBL85kTwwo

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#178

Post by Jolter » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

potiuper wrote: post #158

Animats wrote: post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

Most of the stacks are already at 6 high https://www.tiktok.com/@stanimal18/video/7019310183545376006 . The automated storage & retrieval system cannot go higher. Peel pile would be great if the empty containers did not have to be taken to Dallas. It is questionable if this is a government failure to zone empty buffer yards out in desert as there would be even less of an incentive to return the empty containers; chan…

The way I read the linked article, the idea is to use peel piles for drayage only. That is, for goods that is due for shorter trips within the same urban area, not for long-haul freight. I think it seems like a part of the solution by virtue of having some potential for lowering drivers’ waiting time and maximizing the speed of emptying out a fully stacked terminal.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#179

Post by markdown » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #44

mlindner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why blame the rich people rather than the system that allows them to abuse it? Rich people will always exist. The solution is to make it so that abuse is not possible. One possibility: create a state system for zoning and override every local zoning system. Let local zoning boards decide how to zone but make zoning be based on a tiered zoning system. Namely every zoning is a superset of the previous zoning. So indust…

Why would you assume a state system would be better and not even worse?

Because local government represents just that locality... meaning a wealthy neighbourhood only has politicians elected and controlled by the wealthy.

State govts have to appeal to a much wider demographic.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#180

Post by robocat » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #149

robocat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real-time 3D bufferbloat visualisation! https://netduma.com/blog/beginners-guide-to-bufferbloat/ uses traffic as the metaphor, but future articles will use shipping containers.

How is bufferbloat related to the situation at hand?

The metaphor is that a container is data.

“Bufferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or other network equipment buffering too much data. It is a huge drag on Internet performance created, ironically, by previous attempts to make it work better. The one-sentence summary is ‘Bloated buffers lead to network-crippling latency spikes.’”.

Increasing buffer sizes (increasing the number of containers stored) can have perverse effects that make the situation worse - although it is obviously unclear what the effects in this particular situation could be.

Hopefully the Flexport CEO has read the situation and consequences correctly and his suggestion helps, although chances are it won’t help much. Alternatively it could exacerbate the problem e.g. stacking more than two high could slow down retrieval enough that it ends up being net negative because truckers are deadlocked.

Destroying empty containers is one type of dropped packet. Destroying or discarding container contents (e.g. food gone off, end manufacturer gone out of business, parts sourced elsewhere) is another kind of dropped packet.

Quite a few comments here seem to imply this is some obvious silver bullet to fix the problem, when clearly the problem is far more complicated than that.