After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#171

Post by nightski » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #152

nightski wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't challenge assumptions of capitalism in any meaningful way. In fact my impression reading it was how the author seemed to fundamentally misunderstand finance. I'd love to hear thoughts on how it would be done differently, but he doesn't get that far and rather just makes shallow statements.

> author seemed to fundamentally misunderstand finance. Without telling us in why you think that, your comment just comes across as throwing insults around. Such a serious accusation requires evidence.

It wasn't an insult, it was a critique. Any economy built on promises that can be thrown out at will is just a house of cards. Where do you even start with that? That's just one thing, the article is filled with half thought out premises that when taken to their conclusion fall apart. In reality it is the author making serious accusations that require evidence, not my critique.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#172

Post by smolder » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #97

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, @pg actually started Hacker News and was instrumental to its long-term success. Second, @pg 10 years ago is not @pg today. People change, and while his latest essays many not be exceptional neither in style nor in content, texts like "What You'll Wish You'd Known" and "What You Can't Say" have been highly influential well outside SV or even US. P.S funnily, shortly after "What You'll Wish You'd Known" I sa…

What issues do people have with PG? I also enjoy his later essays. But I guess he is too rich now, so it is mandatory to hate him?

I do think that when someone is very successful and has a reputation, others are more likely to try to tear them down, maybe from a sense that the success or reputation is not deserved.

With the obscene income & wealth inequality that exists, thanks to our winners-take-all kind of society, there is a lot of resentment towards such people.

If Mr. Graham's essays were written by an unknown, my guess is there would be a smaller proportion of negative reactions, but also far less interest overall.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#173

Post by dbingham » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

qsort wrote: post #161

dbingham wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a number of solutions on offer - they just have a difficult time gaining traction in our media (and therefor in the public debate). Part of that has to do with the fact that a majority of those with economic and political power - those who have succeeded in the current system - still refuse to recognize that the problems are systematic. They refuse to recognize that the problems are intrinsically caus…

Not one single line of what you wrote is a concrete and actionable thing you would do. It's frankly a whole bunch of rethoric. I'll pick the bits that seem like they mean something real: > legally structured businesses as institutions democratically run by those working in them This already exists, they are called cooperatives, many of them actually work pretty great. Try to guess what happens when they grow and they…

> This already exists, they are called cooperatives, many of them actually work pretty great. Try to guess what happens when they grow and they need to hire employees...

They continue to operate. Mondragon has 80,000 worker owners. And yes, it has a challenge in recent years where the worker owners have created a class of non-owner employee. But it got pretty big before that started happening, and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't continue to function just fine if that wasn't an option.

There are many other worker cooperatives functioning very well at scale with zero non-owner employees. My proposal is essentially that we make this the requirement. That any business formed must be formed as a democratically run worker cooperative. This is perfectly actionable. Governments define the legal structures under which businesses may form today, and continue to regulate those structures. Right now, those structure enable the investor ownership relationship, and most worker cooperatives have to use those structures and bend them to allow the worker ownership relationship. It's a relatively straight forward legal matter (with wide ranging consequences) to change that structure.

> No banks, no loans, no credit cards. No way to protect against inflation with financial instruments as basic as a target-date fund.

Like I said, this is a thought experiment. Not fleshed out. And it's not the same as the proposal I outlined above for a worker cooperative based democratic socialism. I don't think you actually read my post, I suspect you just skimmed it and then reacted to certain sentences.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#174

Post by dbingham » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

Ancapistani wrote: post #170

iammisc wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That didn't seem like the point you were making, what you wrong seemed to imply some form of the current system has existed forever. My meaning was very plain. I said many people would be unconvinced that anything could be done to achieve equality. I then stated they could point to thousands of years of human life (which, as you correctly stated, contained many economic systems). If you put both points together, yo…

> For me, there's a hierarchy of needs here. First, destitution must end, then we can talk about equality. But ultimately, if the world is extremely unequal, but no one is destitute, then that economic system is good. And we're very close to that by continuing with current trends This strikes me as an excellent way to put it, and is really at the core of why I look upon “alternative solutions” with a cynical eye. Eve…

How would the proposal I outlined for a free market made up of worker cooperatives limit overall wealth in our society?

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#175

Post by dbingham » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #153

dbingham wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a number of solutions on offer - they just have a difficult time gaining traction in our media (and therefor in the public debate). Part of that has to do with the fact that a majority of those with economic and political power - those who have succeeded in the current system - still refuse to recognize that the problems are systematic. They refuse to recognize that the problems are intrinsically caus…

Many states already have usury laws which limit interest rates but in practice that doesn't give labor any more power relative to capital. Lowering limits on interest rates would just result in capitalists ceasing lending to risky businesses. A better solution would be to increase taxes on income from interest and capital, and use that funding for education and social services.

It would have to be linked to a requirement that all businesses be formed as worker cooperatives, democratically run by their workers. That's what would give labor the power.

The usery laws are just about preventing banks from exercising undo power over those worker cooperatives at the formation stage.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#176

Post by dbingham » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

furgooswft13 wrote: post #169

dbingham wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that was centralized state socialism - it was authoritarian and centralized. What I'm proposing is more akin to distributed democratic socialism. Our government is still democratically run. You still have independent banks (formed as credit unions) or crowdfunding to start businesses. The only difference is that once a business hires that first worker, then decisions start getting made democratically. And they co…

This is all bog-standard bolshevik/communist propaganda dressed up in modern lingo. Your "co-ops" are just "soviets" (literal definition "council"). These "worker councils" were officially democratic as laid out in various USSR constitutions, and even the names of some communist bloc countries such as East Germany (German Democratic Republic) and North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea). In practice of cou…

No the co-ops I'm talking about are businesses democratically run by their workers and they exist in the current economy with out coersion. Ever heard of Mondragon? 80,000 worker owner cooperative operating out of Spain for decades. Had an Equal Exchange chocolate bar? King Arthur Flour?

There's no reason you couldn't write the laws of business structure in such a way that all businesses have to be run democratically by their workers. Essentially you do away with the partnership, LLC, and Corporation and replace it with the worker cooperative. What you get is an economy of democratically run worker cooperatives competing with each other in a free market economy. No central planning. No government control. And this is different from the worker councils you're talking about which are, essentially, an effort at democratic, distributed economic planning.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#177

Post by iammisc » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #158

iammisc wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of the rent-seeking? > When someone wants to do something everyone knows is wrong, we don't let them. Yes. that's called enforcing criminal law, and most people would agree with it. Although, I dunno, maybe not in the past two years, it seems more people are okay with letting criminals go. EDIT: If your claim is that we don't put enough people in jail for breaking the law, I agree with you. I…

> Can you give an example of the rent-seeking? I’m not that person but I’ve noticed this pattern in such people. Rent-seeking is anything they don’t like. So it could be landlords charging tenants rent, it could be Apple charging developers 30% “rent”, could be Google charging “rent” on the ad space next to search results, Microsoft charging for Windows even though an additional copy of Windows doesn’t cost them more…

Yeah... I understand the danger of rent-seeking, but I too have noticed this trend. Few can cite an actual example of rent-seeking that ought to be illegal in the general case. It's mostly just like.. company XYZ did something I don't like.

Look, I despise amazon and facebook as much as the next guy, but I don't see why their products or their services ought to be heavily regulated. That's a dangerous road. I just want the law applied fairly, so if the case is that facebook and amazon can kick people off their multi-billion dollar platforms due to their beliefs, then it seems only right that bakers don't have to bake cakes.

Currently, the main behavior I see is that corporations seem exempt from the very laws that individuals apparently have to follow. That seems wrong, and moreover it seems illegal (to be treated differently).

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#178

Post by nradov » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #168

nradov wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other systems are you referring to? Feudalism, fascism, and communism all produced more inequality than free-market capitalism. Note that equality or inequality involves more than just income and assets. Environmental degradation is more a function of overpopulation and technology than the economic system. With free-market capitalism we at least have the potential to price in the environmental degredation exter…

There are many more options than feudalism, fascism, or communism. And my point is that the lack of awareness of them is part of the problem. For example, there's the form of Democratic Socialism I propose above: where we replace the current business structure with worker cooperatives funded by regulated loans or crowd sourcing that compete with each other in a free market. We know worker cooperatives work, because t…

There's nothing stopping workers from creating worker cooperatives today and getting business loans today. We don't need a new economic system for that. But lenders won't lend without a high expected ROI.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#179

Post by NikolaeVarius » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #139

iammisc wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you let humans freely exchange goods, and not interfere, you get capitalism. Capitalism is not a creed like marxism. Capitalism is Marx's term used to describe what happens when people can exchange goods freely. If you're arguing that we should protect free markets in these areas, like Colombia (which would also include curtailing criminal cartels, which infringe on freedom), then sure, we can have a discussion. I…

Here's an idea, capitalism, without the rent-seeking. When someone wants to do something everyone knows is wrong, we don't let them . Instead of making excuses, we hold people with power and affluence to higher standards. What a concept.

Yes, as long as you can agree on "everyone knows is wrong"/

What the fuck does that mean? The same people who would complain about HFT would also probably complain that a person in the 1800's who could run fast would be doing something 'wrong' after they found out a trade ship had returned.

What is "wrong" with the fast exchange of information in that case?

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#180

Post by iammisc » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #174

Ancapistani wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me, there's a hierarchy of needs here. First, destitution must end, then we can talk about equality. But ultimately, if the world is extremely unequal, but no one is destitute, then that economic system is good. And we're very close to that by continuing with current trends This strikes me as an excellent way to put it, and is really at the core of why I look upon “alternative solutions” with a cynical eye. Eve…

How would the proposal I outlined for a free market made up of worker cooperatives limit overall wealth in our society?

It wouldn't. The free market and worker cooperatives are completely compatible. There is nothing that needs to change in the markets, only in society.