After watching the Imitation Game, I did some googling/trying to find out how the Bombe worked. I expected it to not be very exact, but I also kinda felt like the entire narrative around that history in the industry was just super off! - The core mechanisms of the machine for running the Enigma "quickly" was from the Polish - The machine wasn't even a generalized computer! I just felt really misled! Perhaps the bigge…
The Imitation Game was inaccurate and horrible every way you look at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_Game#Historical_...
Turing Oversold?
171–180 of 311 posts
Re: Turing Oversold?
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
"For example, it was claimed that Turing founded computer science.[...] Turing's 1936 paper provided the "theoretical backbone" for all computers to come." So your argument is, because it is unclear how to "physically implement the arbitrary-function minimization operator", Turing is the better "theoretical backbone" and has founded computer science?
The question in the air in 36-ish was something like, "OK, clearly we can mechanically compute things like the sum of two numbers or the prime factorization of a number. But are there other things that can be computed with a discrete and deterministic mechanism?" (At the time they called these "effective" functions.) Church had piles of stuff that he and his students produced that were computable with the lambda calc…
Re: Turing Oversold?
#173We've been over this. Gödel's mu-recursive functions were a poor model of computation because it's completely unclear how to physically implement the arbitrary-function minimization operator. So people didn't see how to build a machine that calculates this way. Similarly, there's no clear way how to mechanize lambda calculus. Turing Machines, on the other hand, were instantly obviously mechanizable. It was clear that…
Harold Abelson points out in one of his lectures [0] that computer science isn't about computers any more than biology is about microscopes.
From that perspective, it is clear that Turing found an existing discipline of computer science and made major contributions to it. But it doesn't really seem right to say that he invented or founded computer science.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J_xL4IGhJA&list=PLE18841CAB...
Re: Turing Oversold?
#174Just the references here are probably an amazing resource for early computer science, and I'm not going to argue against such a force. Seems to be a lot of uneasiness, of late, about the way credit is allocated in science. IMO, it's mistaken to point this at the top: nobel laureates, heroic icons like Einstein or Turing. These figures are supposed to be idolized and idealized. Yes, this is "untrue," technically. But,…
Why do we need idols, though? If there was no narrative, no idols, no celebrities, would people be less motivated to do science? Why do we need to lie to ourselves so? > If you're already deeply interested in computer science, of course the detailed narrative recognizing dozens of brilliant early computer scientists is richer. Of course! Personally I'm mostly uninterested in who did what, but maybe that's just me. It…
Because we're flesh and blood, i.e. utterly irrational.
> If there was no narrative, no idols, no celebrities, would people be less motivated to do science? Why do we need to lie to ourselves so?
Yes, definitely, a huge amount of what motivates scientists is desire for fame, being considered a genius, Nobel prizes, scientific immortality, and so on. It is entirely unrealistic to imagine that we can stop being like this, it's almost a religious belief, akin to thinking that, one day, people can live without sin.
> Personally I'm mostly uninterested in who did what, but maybe that's just me. It seems obvious to me that nearly every scientific discovery could have been done equally well by millions of people, it's just a matter of who had the resources to be educated, who decided to research the problem, who managed to snipe the answer first, and who had the right connections to get it acknowledged. They're still great achievements, for sure, but they're not the markers of exceptional genius we want to think they are, not for Turing or Einstein, but not for anyone at all, really.
This may be an accurate description of your personality, in which you're one in a million, or it may be that you're ignorant about the things that actually drive you. The vast majority of people are driven by some kind of desire for fame, recognition, status, upvotes, and so on.
Suggesting that Turing and Einstein were not "exceptional geniuses" is bizarre. Even in proper context, they were exceptional geniuses, just among other, lesser-known, exceptional geniuses. If we take your view seriously, we remove all human agency and uniqueness, we remove the idea of an "achievement" and we can only give credit to luck, the historical process, and various contingent circumstances. Even if your view is accurate, people simply cannot live that way. Creating narratives is part of what makes us human and narratives need protagonists (idols, heroes, whatever).
Re: Turing Oversold?
#175His halting theorem and work on computability is too abstract and abstruse for most people to recognize its significance (at least until and unless they put their minds to understanding it), but his work in defeating the Nazis, and his important subsequent suicide, apparently brought on by what we now regard (rightly) as harmful bigotry, are the essence of drama. His is a modern Campbellian hero’s tale begging to be told.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac...
Re: Turing Oversold?
#176That might seem pedantic and it is, but you need to define exactly where the line is drawn and more so, give a good reason why. In fact its not even that simple, WE need to decide and agree on where the line is drawn and all of us agree why. Otherwise one mans pedantic is anothers important creditation.
Obviously that's not going to happen anytime soon, so for now, figureheads like Einstein and Turing do the job. And they do certainly deserve credit to some degree. That or we stop giving credit completely, which a). seems like a good way to destroy knowledge and b). isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Edit: As another commenter pointed out, if Einstein or the like were born somewhere else and lived around a different group of people, theres a chance he wouldn't become a figurehead, or he would make less or more or different discoveries. Therefore, theres a third option for creditation, in which everyone who has ever lived up until those discoveries has equal credit. If I were 60 or so years older, I'd be as much to credit for the turing machine as Turing himself. So would you. Of course, this is pretty much as good as no credit to anyone at all, but fixing it again requires a joint agreement on where the line is drawn
Re: Turing Oversold?
#177We've been over this. Gödel's mu-recursive functions were a poor model of computation because it's completely unclear how to physically implement the arbitrary-function minimization operator. So people didn't see how to build a machine that calculates this way. Similarly, there's no clear way how to mechanize lambda calculus. Turing Machines, on the other hand, were instantly obviously mechanizable. It was clear that…
Likewise, people dispute that Ada Lovelace was the first programmer, because Babbage and Menabrea had previously created a few simple example programs. But that downplays her accomplishments too much. She didn't write the "first program" but she was the first to understand what computers would be capable of doing (for example, that by assigning numbers to letters and symbols, computers could do more than simply perfo…
Re: Turing Oversold?
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Likewise, people dispute that Ada Lovelace was the first programmer, because Babbage and Menabrea had previously created a few simple example programs. But that downplays her accomplishments too much. She didn't write the "first program" but she was the first to understand what computers would be capable of doing (for example, that by assigning numbers to letters and symbols, computers could do more than simply perfo…
I really enjoyed Stephen Wolfram's mini-bio of her. https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2015/12/untangling-the-t... I very much recoginized from that that she had the attitude and experience of a "programmer," so I would say she was the first programmer, in the modern sense.
Re: Turing Oversold?
#179The problem with technically correct allocation of of credit is that to be truly technically correct, it gets very messy very quickly, as all knowledge is built on other knowledge. The credit for founding computer science would be "[absolutely massive list of people] and finally of course, the one we call Ung, who discovered the wheel". That might seem pedantic and it is, but you need to define exactly where the line…
Re: Turing Oversold?
#180We've been over this. Gödel's mu-recursive functions were a poor model of computation because it's completely unclear how to physically implement the arbitrary-function minimization operator. So people didn't see how to build a machine that calculates this way. Similarly, there's no clear way how to mechanize lambda calculus. Turing Machines, on the other hand, were instantly obviously mechanizable. It was clear that…