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The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#171

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

anigbrowl wrote: post #123
kybernetikos wrote: post #60

It's so weird to see people still claiming this. Sweden has relatively few neighbors, but compare it with any of them, and it looks bad https://imgur.com/a/BlaU2SX Yes, Sweden did well compared to the EU average, but a country with very low population density, surrounded by very few neighbors that all got the virus under control very quickly has a lot of things going for it compared to the European average. The diffe…

The Telegraph leans strongly conservative just as the Guardian leans strongly left. This seems like a very slanted article; it buries the mortality impact of CVOID until near the end. I seriously doubt that Norway would prefer to swap its ~10x lower death rate for Sweden's GDP numbers. Further: In a paper published last week in science journal Nature, Dr Bhatt, together with the UK's former government advisor Neil Fe…

Weren't a lot of Sweden's deaths very early and from nursing homes specifically because they were taking literally no preventative measures, though?

They learned from this, and recommended different things for older people and nursing homes, specifically, was my understanding.

If you factor out all those deaths in the beginning - the difference in deaths is not 10x.

And 10x doesn't really matter. If 1 person died in Norway and 10 people died in Sweden, I don't think we'd be debating much. Even in Sweden, they did not have as many deaths as most other countries, and a lot of them were very early on.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#173

Post by sib »

gpsx wrote: post #107
ismaildonmez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hindsight is 20/20" because perfect eyesight is 20/20: https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/what-does-20-...

Yes, that is the point. The original saying is Hindsight is 20/20, implying it is very accurate. This version of the statement contradicts that, implying you can't really say what would have happened if things were different.

But 50/50 would be effectively the same meaning as 20/20.

(20/20 means "person being tested sees as well at 20 feet as standard vision at 20 feet.")

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#174

Post by thaumasiotes »

irrational wrote: post #96
Hamuko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20/20 is actually just normal vision, not perfect eyesight.

What is perfect vision? I thought 20/20 meant you don’t need glasses or any other aids to see. Would perfect vision being able to see everything in the electromagnetic spectrum? How big would one eyes need to be?

> What is perfect vision?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Powers,_abilities,_an...

> I thought 20/20 meant you don’t need glasses or any other aids to see.

No, of course not. Try looking at Saturn at night. Then try looking through a telescope. Odds are you'll see it better with the aid.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#175

Post by alecst »

wk_end wrote: post #48
alecst wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. I am wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_urban_area I find ~4200 on Wikipedia but your point stands.

FWIW, the main Wikipedia page on Stockholm lists a “Density” of ~5200, an “Urban Density” of ~4200 and a “Metro Density” of ~400. I admittedly don’t know which is the most useful one here. Population density metrics are tricky. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm And not to be too scold-y, but 400 people per sq km is the population density of small middle-American towns. I know Stockholm isn’t the biggest city…

Definitely a learning moment for me. Means that the question of Sweden may not be so simple.

That said, most of the population doesn’t live in Stockholm, so that probably was not the right idea to start to begin with.

As another commenter pointed out, Sweden did worse than its neighbors who have a similar population distribution, and I think that's the more interesting take.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#176

Post by spookthesunset »

dijit wrote: post #142
spookthesunset wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a very serious response, and it isn’t my job to prove. All the lockdown proponents need to prove their draconian, Stone Age mitigation’s did anything at all. As far as I can see it’s just blind luck that one region “did better” than a other.

You don’t want to be forced to do anything. I get that. Pandemic response is not coded into us, it’s something we have to consciously do- and it’s draining to fight an invisible enemy. I have issues with authority, so I understand the desire to fight against being told what to do. But you’re denying science, this is not helpful.

The pandemic respond we got was not at all what we planned. It was using something completely untested and unproven with huge massive negative side effects. It was and still is unethical and immoral.

Science has nothing to do with these NPIs because science doesn’t tell society what do to.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#177

Post by spookthesunset »

iamstupidsimple wrote: post #120
spookthesunset wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? https://www.covidchartsquiz.com/

(This should be a submission in its own right.) Really interesting data.

It will never survive. Looks like we are back to March 2020 levels of panic again based on how my comments are doing… sad.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#178

Post by thaumasiotes »

gpsx wrote: post #107
ismaildonmez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hindsight is 20/20" because perfect eyesight is 20/20: https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/what-does-20-...

Yes, that is the point. The original saying is Hindsight is 20/20, implying it is very accurate. This version of the statement contradicts that, implying you can't really say what would have happened if things were different.

> The original saying is Hindsight is 20/20, implying it is very accurate.

That is how the saying is used, but oddly enough it's pretty much the opposite of what 20/20 vision means.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#179

Post by user-the-name »

eckesicle wrote: post #130
kybernetikos wrote: post #60

It's so weird to see people still claiming this. Sweden has relatively few neighbors, but compare it with any of them, and it looks bad https://imgur.com/a/BlaU2SX Yes, Sweden did well compared to the EU average, but a country with very low population density, surrounded by very few neighbors that all got the virus under control very quickly has a lot of things going for it compared to the European average. The diffe…

In this case the neighbouring countries arent great comparators. Population density has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread. Large swaths of the country is empty with the populace being very urbanised. Stockholm has a population density on par with London, and Oslo is about half of that. Also households look very different in Sweden compared to it's neighbours. The average household size is among the lowest in the…

> In this case the neighbouring countries arent great comparators

As someone living in a neighbouring country, this is bullshit. They are perfect comparators. Basically exactly the same.

Sweden didn't lock down. Everyone else did. Ten times more people died in Sweden. End of story.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#180

Post by eckesicle »

yyyk wrote: post #164
eckesicle wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the neighbouring countries arent great comparators. Population density has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread. Large swaths of the country is empty with the populace being very urbanised. Stockholm has a population density on par with London, and Oslo is about half of that. Also households look very different in Sweden compared to it's neighbours. The average household size is among the lowest in the…

>The Swedish CDC also says they believe they've fared worse than Norway and Denmark because the last few flu seasons were very mild in the country. It's called the 'dry tinder' hypothesis, and it isn't born out when researchers look at the data, e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34213362/

Thanks!
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