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How The Hell Is This My Fault?

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Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#171

Post by realou »

Hello. It seems that this Airbnb business model is a bit flawed because it requires a level of trust from customers which cannot be obtained in the world we currently live in. How to add trust? many solutions exist.

One such solution could be, for example, to have ALL the rented properties daily cleaned up by Airbnb-hired people (contracted 3rd party companies will be happy to do this in most civilized cities). This would be a cool service the renters would appreciate, and would provide the rentees at least some level of trust their home is not being vandalized.

A concierge service could also help.

I am sure many other ways exits to add Trust to the model. This must become Airbnb's most valuable product feature... This should be considered an important "enabling technology" without which the business cannot survive in the long run.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#172

Post by sek »

cageface wrote: post #90
rweba wrote: post #77

This might now end up affecting not only Airbnb but also the image of Ycombinator and pg. Also the important issue here is not just the (terrible) handling of this specific incident by Airbnb but the fact that it puts into question their entire business model: Is it really smart to rent out your personal residence to a complete stranger? Does the potential benefit($$$) outweigh the significant risks(being completely…

I think the crucial context is even larger than that. There's a lot of anxiety in the tech community about the recent valuations of several startups. First there was the revelation that a lot of Groupon's reported "profits" are products of clever accounting. Then Color implodes after a ridiculously disproportionate funding round. And now AirBNB, the poster child of internet disintermediation of old, hidebound industr…

Since LinkedIn everyone behaves like 2001, every buzz company is trying to get an IPO.

Facebook, Groupon, AirBnB, Twitter and Zynga. All of them without a clean history. My feeling is they all try to go public as fast as possible as long as the Buzz is still there and don't try to create a sustainable business. All of them have bad finances or questionable business models. I would trust Zynga financially the most, but i assume they make their big bucks from people with compulsive gambling disorders.

I think all these people involved know about this and they try to cash out as fast as possible. This is why everyone is so stressed.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#173

Post by skue »

coffeemug wrote: post #19

The way many people here jumped to conclusions after the initial AirBnB story based on almost no information is really disheartening. Insulting the founders of the company, the victim, and concocting conspiracy theories based on a few paragraphs of information with barely any evidence is a really poor way to conduct oneself. Most decent people wouldn't do it in face-to-face conversations without getting to know a per…

Please don't lead off with telling us not to jump to conclusions, and then laying out your conclusion for us.

> I had the opportunity to hear the founders speak a number of times. They're one of the very few founders that are incredibly genuine about bringing a positive change into the lives of their customers.

> * I don't know the victim but it's easy to misinterpret events after going through an emotional trauma. Most likely it's a misunderstanding*

People aren't all good or all bad, and sometimes good people do bad things. Even people you admire. It doesn't mean they're bad people, or that you're a bad judge of character. It just means they screwed up.

You made a judgment about the character of the AirBNB folks and seem unwilling to question them now. But you haven't met the victim, and you're more than willing to imply that this is her misunderstanding while masking this in the faux compassion of saying she's just traumatized.

That's not fair.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#174

Post by ulisesroche »

jacquesm wrote: post #151
ulisesroche wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess. You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission.

> Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess. I figure PG not talking to all parties is what caused the bigger mess. > You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission. I don't like witch hunts. AirBNB has obviously done a lot of things wrong here but I think they can still recover from this if it gets handled 100% good from now…

Witch hunt? Who are we, the angry mob of white-knights, burning? I don't think anyone has taken extreme measures to persecute Airbnb, but Arrington was blamed out of the blue with little regard for actual guilt or innocence.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#175

Post by jamesteow »

kyro wrote: post #95

HN has been pretty disgusting the last few days: the level of schadenfreude here has hit ridiculous new highs. It seems that every time a story breaks about a successful company, a bunch of envious and disgruntled people come out of the woodwork and jump onto the bandwagon headed straight for the founders' heads. A community of seemingly intelligent and rational individuals turns into the most rabid, emotionally-char…

I agree with the overall sentiment of your statement. I think people have blown this situation far out of proportion. People touting their model is broken or that the company is going to fail over this one inciden... Same with Dropbox. It does have something to do with their successes.

That said:

People attacked the founders because, for better or worse, they got directly involved in this. And if one of the co-founders really did tell her to take down that blog post to make sure their valuation doesn't take a hit, that'll draw a lot of ire.

Plus, Airbnb has millions of dollars. They have the PR capacity to deal with these scenarios. If they aren't framing their true side of the story, whose fault is that? Like it or not, people are going to speculate especially when there is a long history of corporations side-stepping responsibility. (I am not at all suggesting that Airbnb is not trying to help. I'm saying why I can see how people can assume the worst) The fact that PG has to publicly defend them is ludicrous. It's like a father defending a fully-grown son.

The core issue here beyond the Dropbox security folly and the previous Craigslist/Airbnb debacle (which both sparked a ton of vitriol) is that this exact scenario this woman went through was bound to happen and should not have gotten out of hand. Credit cards get stolen. The process is: phone a 24-hotline, cancel a card, get a new one in the mail, challenge the fees, hopefully get money back. With this Airbnb scenario, the woman had to contact Airbnb through a freelancer who worked for them because no one initially responded to her e-mails or phone calls!

Craigslist does a very good job of warning people of the dangers all across the process. If you click on sublets, there are huge links at the top warning of fraud, scams, and personal safety tips. If you click on a post, there is a giant yellow box that warns the user of scams. On Airbnb: Nothing on the homepage, nothing on the lists of properties, and nothing on the listing itself. Airbnb isn't liable for the damages (as stated by their agreement) but they should have made more of an effort to educate the users of the potential hazards of the site and liabilities for the buyer. Hell, I used Airbnb in Paris and I genuinely thought that Airbnb would have a very responsive team in case shit hit the fan. With Craigslist, there is no false sense of security: every step of the way, they warn you.

The whole situation far bigger than it needed to be.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#176

Post by danso »

jacquesm wrote: post #159
spidertoday wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I passed her contact information to the one guy that I think can keep his head cool enough to solve this in a way that is beneficial to her. You may disagree with that but that's fine with me. PG has a vested interest here -- he's an investor, not a neutral party.

I trust PG to be able to overcome his bias and do the right thing here and have every reason to believe that he can and possibly will. Yes, he's an investor, he's also a human being. Hearing both sides of the story is crucial in that, as long as he's hearing just one side he probably should not be commenting on this. The alternative is that he will let AirBNB solve this by themselves, based on the data available so f…

Wow, are you kidding me?

Based on the data so far, many people would agree that EJ seem spooked by he fast moving world of innovative startups, social networking, and venture capitalism. Based on the fact that she has been saying how terrified she's been to release even the basic info about the situation yet didn't have the foresight to remove past entries from her blog, I'd say it is also safe to say that she is naive about the state of privacy in the online world.

So you take it upon yourself to not only track her down, but give her personal details to someone with a financial stake in what has been described as a billion dollar hyperstartup.

Think about that, from her perspective and from the perspective of her sympathizers.

We saw yesterday how she interpreted what may have been the sincerest of emails by a cofounder to get coffee as a calculated uncaring attempt to quiet her.

And now she receives correspondence from someone with no apparent connection to airbnb who, btw, sent her info to a well known backer of a billion dollar company.

What the hell do you think she'll do? Spend an hour siting on whatever couch she has managed to find for temp residence and read yours and pg's HN profiles and threads and see that you and pg are indeed standup guys??

Look at her past behavior She has already insinuated that airbnb has tried to overtly intimidate her, a tactic, that until yesterday, very few of HN readers would have thought possible of the savvy founders of airbnb.

And now you have faith that this reluctant participant in the ycombinator world will give you the full benefit of the doubt and take the time to learn from secon hand sources that you're not some creep?

When journalists new to this whole debacle come across this thread, how much benefit of the doubt do you think you'll receive?

Do you think that there's a way to fit in "Some hackernews user tracks down fearful airbnb victim and gives her contact info to airbnb backer" AND "airbnb backer had proven track recor of bring unbiased and kindly" into 140 characters.

People thought EJ was naive. I think you've set a new bar.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#177

Post by felideon »

yycom wrote: post #166
jacquesm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may come as a surprise to you, but I generally do what I think is right in life. I've been wrong on occasion in the past but in this particular case I feel that this is the right thing to do. Feel free to disagree. With what I know about PG and the situation as it has been presented to date if he gets involved he will resolve it, if he does not then it will quite probably blow up with as the only winners the lawye…

> I generally do what I think is right in life Jesus I wish these self-important fucks would stop bragging about how fucking great they are. Actually, just stop talking, all of you. Shut up, and do some fucking work.

While you sit back and watch the show? At least he's _trying_ to do something to help EJ[1] and has enough strut to take this up to pg. It's called compassion, not self righteousness.

Also, take your language back to 4chan whence you came.

[1] Other than offering pitty.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#178

Post by danso »

jacquesm wrote: post #151
ulisesroche wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess. You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission.

> Jacques, listen: Airbnb already called the grownups, and he made an even bigger mess. I figure PG not talking to all parties is what caused the bigger mess. > You're telling us to calm down, to not be so brash, but you should have asked for her permission. I don't like witch hunts. AirBNB has obviously done a lot of things wrong here but I think they can still recover from this if it gets handled 100% good from now…

I dont know you but I can only guess that you are indeed a sincere person with a good heart who wants to cut through the crap to right a wrong. I'm making this judgment because a devious person would never do what you just did and try to justify it publicly on HN.

But I hope you see how you have potentially mucked things up, and that if this doesn't add more fuel to the fire it's only because all the interested parties are enjoying their weekend. I admire your idealism but there are way too many moving parts and potential for miscommunication for someone to make an act of intervention based on his personal faith in one of the investors involved

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#179

Post by jmtame »

skue wrote: post #173
coffeemug wrote: post #19

The way many people here jumped to conclusions after the initial AirBnB story based on almost no information is really disheartening. Insulting the founders of the company, the victim, and concocting conspiracy theories based on a few paragraphs of information with barely any evidence is a really poor way to conduct oneself. Most decent people wouldn't do it in face-to-face conversations without getting to know a per…

Please don't lead off with telling us not to jump to conclusions, and then laying out your conclusion for us. > I had the opportunity to hear the founders speak a number of times. They're one of the very few founders that are incredibly genuine about bringing a positive change into the lives of their customers. > * I don't know the victim but it's easy to misinterpret events after going through an emotional trauma. M…

It's not a matter of questioning people you admire or not, it's a matter of reserving judgment and not making personal attacks until you know all the facts from both parties.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#180

Post by jacquesm »

rweba wrote: post #77

This might now end up affecting not only Airbnb but also the image of Ycombinator and pg. Also the important issue here is not just the (terrible) handling of this specific incident by Airbnb but the fact that it puts into question their entire business model: Is it really smart to rent out your personal residence to a complete stranger? Does the potential benefit($$$) outweigh the significant risks(being completely…

> This might now end up affecting not only Airbnb but also the image of Ycombinator and pg.

That is already happening:

http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-graha...

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