Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#171

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #64

ashtonkem wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have to wonder if they’re confused on why this isn’t persuasive to normal people. Go cook outside on a rocket stove[0] and washing clothes by hand every day? Come on. Meanwhile the thing that has actually gotten people out of their cars is the ebike. It turns out it’s much more effective to produce a more convenient and comfortable solution for people rather than just demand that they go back a century or two…

never seem to actually say who should be stuck doing all the labor They are probably not actually closet misogynists or anything like that, they probably just haven’t thought that far ahead.

> They are probably not actually closet misogynists or anything like that, they probably just haven’t thought that far ahead.

I agree, this is more probable than the closet misogyny theory. But it's still not exactly a ringing endorsement to say "whoops, we didn't think about who would have to do all that labor once we took away all those labor saving devices!" It's not like this is some hard to predict third order effect, after all.

Overall, the whole argument they're making is kind of silly. Washing clothes by hand sucks, people rushed to buy machines to replace this labor for a damned good reason. If someone's plan for the future involves persuading people to go back to doing labor the vast majority of people don't want to do, then they should prepared for a lot of failure. Given the continued sales of brand new washing machines at my local home improvement store, I would argue that they have failed thus far.

(Ironically, there is probably a good lower-tech argument in making labor saving devices simpler and more reliable. The short lifespan of our appliances is both deeply unpopular and environmentally problematic, and doing anything to make them more repairable would both be good for the environment and incredibly popular.)

Back to their original argument, there's a reason why I hold up the e-bike as an unqualified success that the authors here are incorrectly ignoring. Cycling enthusiasts--myself included--have argued for decades that biking is better and people should switch over to using bikes for more trips. Repeated appeals to the environment, the wallet, and ones health haven't really moved the needle much in this area. Yet it's the high-tech (gasp!) e-bike that appears to be finally getting commuters out of cars and into the saddle. It turns out that while moralizing is fun, actual change involves making compromises towards the convenience and comfort of your average person.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#172

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #83

Gibbon1 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rocket stove reminds me. I've seen lots of stuff on low tech 'improved' cook stoves for people in developing countries. I think women in those countries would be happier served with a pressure cooker and a two burner induction stove running off solar panels. All horrible high tech, but actually cheap commodities in practice.

An induction hob with a single ring/burner takes anywhere from 1.3-1.8 kWh of energy. It's almost impossible for the type of person that would benefit from a rocket stove to have access to a solar setup which could generate that much energy. Moreover, most of the time these families/individuals are impoverished enough and/or live in places with bad enough infrastructure that even gas for a gas stove isn't available.…

My fairly large solar setup provides a max of about 6.5kW under ideal circumstances (which isn't always when we need to cook, FWIW), but it's far far beyond what a typical woman in developing Africa could afford.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#173

Post by bluGill » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

hoseja wrote: post #129

spijdar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't watched this video in a while so apologies if it's not specifically elaborated on, but I believe it's covered here: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04 From memory yes, it's partially about water usage, but dishwashers are in general just pretty good overall about efficiently using energy to maximize "food grime removed" per unit of resources fed in. Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I th…

And it's disgusting and water where I live is cheap and plentiful. Hate water austerity imposed on everyone because of megacities and people living where people shouldn't live.

IF this was about water I agree with you. However it isn't actually about water it is about water heating. Hot water cleans better than cold, but it takes energy to heat water and that affects everyone (global warming). Thus less water is better.

There are also some water pumping and treatment costs (more energy), but they can be ignored as insignificant.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#174

Post by eldaisfish » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

citrin_ru wrote: post #125

SilverRed wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not always using a clothes dryer is fine and good advice. But not using an electric kettle and replacing it with heating water on a gas stove is so beyond absurd I'm shocked how they even came to this conclusion since gas stoves are less efficient and much worse for the environment than a kettle. And a kettle is so low impact anyway. It uses a high amount of power for a very short time and spends almost all of its li…

> since gas stoves are less efficient and much worse for the environment than a kettle. It is not obvious at all and requires calculations. When you use electric kettle you use energy which was obtained mostly from coal and gas (60% of it in the US) and efficiency of the conversion is less than about 40% on average (limited by efficiency of a steam turbine). Then about 8% of this power is lost during transportation/d…

>It is not obvious at all and requires calculations.

Heating water in a domestic setting on a gas stove is incredibly inefficient and you don't even need a calculator to know why - put your hand adjacent to the stove and feel the heat being lost. This is not a small fraction, it is significant unless you run the stove really low and spread that heat over a large area.

Now put your hand and any point outside an electric kettle and see how much heat you can feel. Almost none.

This isn't really as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#175

Post by bluGill » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #166

hoseja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's disgusting and water where I live is cheap and plentiful. Hate water austerity imposed on everyone because of megacities and people living where people shouldn't live.

Large human population is an issue. But if you accept that as a premise, Megacities are more efficient in terms of resource usage than equally-sized but geographically dispersed populations. As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

See my other post: agriculture water is not heated or treated. Thus cities use as much energy for their water despite only using a fraction. In all of the above water itself is not the issue as it isn't lost, just moved downstream until the water cycle (rain - which has always been non-uniform) brings it back.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#176

Post by bluGill » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #133

nielsbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how dish washers are more efficient than hand washing? Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub?

> Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub? Yes: if your dishwasher has the Energy Star rating then it must use ≤15L of water using the normal cycle per the EPA. This is half the volume of a small sink and a one-third or less of larger ones. Most people run the water. In the US the average flow rate of a kitchen faucet is 8 L/min (2.2 gpm), s…

Most people use as much water rinsing their dishes to almost clean before putting them in the dishwasher.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#177

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #166

hoseja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's disgusting and water where I live is cheap and plentiful. Hate water austerity imposed on everyone because of megacities and people living where people shouldn't live.

Large human population is an issue. But if you accept that as a premise, Megacities are more efficient in terms of resource usage than equally-sized but geographically dispersed populations. As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

A city may be more efficient than lower population density on a per-capita basis but that is only tangential to the problem. A city in the California desert is not a good reason someone in NYC should have to endure a washing machine and dishwasher that are so stingy about water usage they are frequently ineffective at their primary task.

>As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

Where do those agricultural products get sold and eaten?

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#178

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #146

ashtonkem wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have to wonder if they’re confused on why this isn’t persuasive to normal people. Go cook outside on a rocket stove[0] and washing clothes by hand every day? Come on. Meanwhile the thing that has actually gotten people out of their cars is the ebike. It turns out it’s much more effective to produce a more convenient and comfortable solution for people rather than just demand that they go back a century or two…

> Meanwhile the thing that has actually gotten people out of their cars is the ebike. This is not my experience. People just put their ebike on a rack and drive it somewhere to ride it for fun.

And this is why it's useful to check the literature, individual results might provide misleading anecdotes.

> This paper reports on a review of the European literature about the impacts of having an electrically-assisted bike available to use, together with results from a trial in the UK city of Brighton, where 80 employees were loaned an electrically-assisted bike for a 6–8 week period. In the Brighton trial, three-quarters of those who were loaned an e-bike used them at least once a week. Across the sample as a whole, average usage was in the order of 15–20 miles per week, and was accompanied by an overall reduction in car mileage of 20%. At the end of the trial, 38% participants expected to cycle more in the future, and at least 70% said that they would like to have an e-bike available for use in the future, and would cycle more if this was the case. This is consistent with the results of the European literature which shows that when e-bikes are made available, they get used; that a proportion of e-bike trips typically substitutes for car use; and that many people who take part in trials become interested in future e-bike use, or cycling more generally.

The real key is that e-bike users will ride further, which expands the range of trips that the owners will consider via bike.

> John MacArthur was the lead author of the NITC report, and told the Electric Bike Report, “While many of the rides we surveyed were for recreation, on average we found that the average trip on an e-bike was nine miles,” adding, “historically on traditional bicycles we see a trip of more than five miles being a barrier.”

> Additionally, the electric assist of the e-bike helps to generate more trips, longer trips and different types of bicycle trips. These findings are represented by the high value attributed to being able to avoid or tackle hills easier, ride farther and faster with less effort, and being able to carry more cargo or children when needed.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#179

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #133

nielsbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how dish washers are more efficient than hand washing? Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub?

> Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub? Yes: if your dishwasher has the Energy Star rating then it must use ≤15L of water using the normal cycle per the EPA. This is half the volume of a small sink and a one-third or less of larger ones. Most people run the water. In the US the average flow rate of a kitchen faucet is 8 L/min (2.2 gpm), s…

Very few people are running the faucet anywhere near full blast when dish-washing.

My faucet is very slow, about ~1gpm (I timed it once upon a time because I wanted to be able to put a number to how slow it is). When hand washing I run at maybe 1/4 or less of that. Everyone else in my household runs it at less.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#180

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #166

hoseja wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's disgusting and water where I live is cheap and plentiful. Hate water austerity imposed on everyone because of megacities and people living where people shouldn't live.

Large human population is an issue. But if you accept that as a premise, Megacities are more efficient in terms of resource usage than equally-sized but geographically dispersed populations. As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

Typically even within residential areas the issues isn't people per se, it's lawns and golf courses. And those are absolutely not evenly distributed or used.