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Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

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Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#171

Post by w0de0 »

yayr wrote: post #45

This may be unpopular, but the hard thing in this discussion is to differentiate between consumption and investment. It does not help much to take wealth in terms of equity paper money away from people who know how to invest it efficiently and distribute it. On the other hand, there are minimum basic needs for consumption of food, health services, shelter, education etc. I agree that the system to finance those servi…

Good god, man. This is slavish. And - I'll note - not unpopular, which is distressing.

Tax isn't punishment. Ever. Especially when tax rate is already so low that the proposed "emergency tax" is still less than historical income tax rates.

Tax is part of the social contract that allowed those billionaires the stability, educated workforce, infrastructure, safety from theft, etc, etc, etc, needed to build and maintain their wealth.

The idea that billionaires "invest [their wealth] efficiently and distribute it" is laughably sophomoric, a parody of the Gilded Age's self-serving justification for robber barons. Billionaires invest efficiently _for the preservation of their wealth across generations of their family_, only the most credulously optimistic model of capitalism supposes that this aligns with "distribution" (whatever that means - trickling down, eh?) or with the best investments for society at large.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#172

Post by danaris »

vlunkr wrote: post #102
eightysixfour wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you hit the nail on the head, I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful, that's why people are calling for it to be taken by the government and redistributed.

Probably because people view billionaires as mustache-twirling villains and have absolutely no idea what they do with their time or money.

Anyone who has amassed a fortune in the billions has necessarily done so through one of only two ways: exploiting the labour of very large numbers of poorly-paid people, or receiving it from those who have done so.

Meanwhile, they have seen the plight of the billions of human beings who live in poverty and want, and chosen to use their vast resources almost purely to make more for themselves, rather than dedicate to alleviating such suffering even enough that their lifestyle is the slightest bit inconvenienced.

The sanctity of "property ownership" is not so sacred a principle that it should take priority over wholly preventable widespread suffering and death. There is no moral argument that could possibly support this much of humanity's productive output being hoarded by so few, rather than going to improve the world in a myriad of ways.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#173

Post by bradlys »

protoman3000 wrote: post #158

Why is there no extremely high VAT on luxury goods?

That would just punish people who can afford luxury goods - not billionaires. People who are wage slaves like the rest of us can afford luxury goods. Besides - what is a "luxury" good to you?

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#174

Post by dogma1138 »

endisneigh wrote: post #49

I have no problem with billionaires personally. I do have a problem with people being billionaires if the "value" they've created is negative (obviously this is my opinion). Consider two billionaries: - One creates a cold nuclear fusion device the size of a 10" x 10" x 10" cube. You can plug anything to this device and it will power it, indefinitely. - Another gets little boys and girls addicted to some sort of super…

The problem with this argument is that reality isn’t black and white; and when we legislate what essentially then boils down to morality it tends to turn into a cluster fuck.

If you look at essentially all billionaires they don’t fit on either edge of your spectrum, and where they actually fall in the middle isn’t an easy question to answer either.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#175

Post by simonh »

pwinnski wrote: post #166
simonh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This assumes what needs to be proven. I think it has been, dramatically, over the last 120 years. Plenty of countries have tried radical appropriation and redistribution, and it failed spectacularly every time. Meanwhile a prominent Marxist country, China, turned to capitalism and within a generation has raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and into urban middle class lives. Meanwhile Cuba, Venezuela…

This is a radical oversimplification of what has happened and is happening in China, conflating several things into one. China is still very much a communist country, and the raising of many people out of poverty is in large part a result of the government distributing the gains that have come from "special economic zones" into rural areas on a scale that would make a "tax on billionaires" seem like a quaint half-ste…

The vast majority of the cash flowing into rural areas is actually remittances from sons and daughters that went to work in the special economic zones, or the main urban centres to mainly work for private enterprises.

Anyway the hundreds of millions of people I'm taking about are the urban middle class. Their wealth almost entirely flows from the capitalist sector, in fact the majority of the wealth in the state sector comes from the capitalist sector one way or another. Source, my wife is Chinese and we have extensive family connections over there.

China is a single party state with a command economy, but is in no way shape or form Communist or even Marxist. It's social security system is barely existant; it's public health care is radically fee based to a degree that even makes the US system look socialist; many tens of millions of urban residents get zero public support or even schooling for their children because their families come from the countryside.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#177

Post by yayr »

w0de0 wrote: post #171
yayr wrote: post #45

This may be unpopular, but the hard thing in this discussion is to differentiate between consumption and investment. It does not help much to take wealth in terms of equity paper money away from people who know how to invest it efficiently and distribute it. On the other hand, there are minimum basic needs for consumption of food, health services, shelter, education etc. I agree that the system to finance those servi…

Good god, man. This is slavish. And - I'll note - not unpopular, which is distressing. Tax isn't punishment. Ever. Especially when tax rate is already so low that the proposed "emergency tax" is still less than historical income tax rates. Tax is part of the social contract that allowed those billionaires the stability, educated workforce, infrastructure, safety from theft, etc, etc, etc, needed to build and maintain…

you should read again - systems for redistribution of wealth can be good if they are not broken. Income taxes e.g. are imo a great way to do this, if they cannot be avoided. However, to tax an increase in share price without any transaction is often counterproductive.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#178

Post by IgorPartola »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #155
IgorPartola wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

Citation also needed for the opposite position - that the government will use the money well.

Sure. But here is the thing: what consequences to billionaires face if they use their wealth in stupid and unproductive ways? At least for the government we have some recourse (elections, protests, public hearings).

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#179

Post by jayjader »

ericd wrote: post #160
jayjader wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depend on what is done with said boost. It would go straight into your wallet? Makes perfect sense to me for the government to get an additional cut. It would go straight into the companies' salaries? No reason for the government to touch it more than it already does. Obviously, there's room for nuance and it's not just one or the other.

Company value is decreased when earnings are dividended out “into your wallet” or paid out in salaries, so I’m talking about neither.

obviously, just like I'm talking about what you _do_ with the increase. Are you really just saying to leave the increase in value alone? Then why pursue it?

I'm under the impression that an increase in company value is not an end to itself, it's a means to an end (more investment, more dividends, higher sell-off/buy-off price, increased stock price, etc - all are more probable when company valuation increases).

So why are you looking to increase your company's value?

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#180

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

ericd wrote: post #162
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's kinda the point I think. You could save a bunch of money by filling your product with asbestos and making employees pee in jugs, or you could just, you know, not do that because then you have to hand over more control of your business to the government. Granted, this also disincentives societally beneficial efficiency increases.

You realize that those examples are the extreme exceptions that the press has made hay out of, and aren’t representative, right? Most company value boosting actions are much more boring. I wonder how much of this backlash is just a result of people being propagandized to by the media’s steady drumbeat about corporate abuses since the GFC.

I am not convinced that these are exceptions. By and large, corporations are run by people who see no problem with exploiting others and the more successful they are, it seems, the more willing they are to exploit. That's why we invented unions, and labor regulations, and all the other regulations for that matter and it still isn't enough to stop them from doing it.

Texaco dumped a bunch of waste in the Amazon and refused to clean it up or pay for it. Why is this not surprising to anybody? Oh, right, because we all know that this sort of thing happens all the goddamned time.

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