Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#171

Post by cheez » Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 11:45 AM UTC

thricedotted wrote: post #169

Perceval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of…

I disagree with much of what you say, but because I don't think continued debate will get either of us anywhere at this point, I'd like to return to the last point I made, which was: at the end of the day, does it matter whether or not gender binaries and socialization and sexism is the reason there aren't more women in tech? It sure as hell is a reason the women who ARE in tech are dissatisfied. Does it matter that…

We should be careful not to associate women in computer science with popular ideas of feminism.

It's more fair to say "woman" as that encompasses all their experiences and does not advocate any one particular political philosophy.

It's also not about rights at this point. I've never been on a software team that would not love to have more women. We code all day long, how else should we meet smart women? Trust me, the library doesn't work ;-)

Right now, the problem is society's filter leading up to professional work.

I'm confident it will be solved in the next few decades as more women gain positions of authority.

Once they can reproduce without input from a man, then it's over. Hopefully they'll remember how much it sucked to be powerless!

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#172

Post by ICanDoMore » Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 1:57 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #80

ICanDoMore wrote: post #44

If you're wondering why a field once roughly equal in its gender balance is now male-dominated, perhaps some real quotes from the hiring manager at this company will shed some light. "Oh, a female applicant!" (Tone: Surprise) "He's male which immediately places him above [the female applicant]" (Tone: Joking... but inappropriately sandwiched between comments relevant to their ability to do the job, imo) Argument ensu…

You could tell the female candidate.

Two problems with this:

1) She can only bring a discrimination case if she doesn't get hired and can show it's because she was female. If they hire a better male applicant, there is no case.

2) If she brings action against them which fails, I am then wide open to libel and / or slander.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#173

Post by Perceval » Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 4:36 PM UTC

thricedotted wrote: post #169

Perceval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of…

I disagree with much of what you say, but because I don't think continued debate will get either of us anywhere at this point, I'd like to return to the last point I made, which was: at the end of the day, does it matter whether or not gender binaries and socialization and sexism is the reason there aren't more women in tech? It sure as hell is a reason the women who ARE in tech are dissatisfied. Does it matter that…

I saw your comment last night and it bothered me, but I couldn't put my finger on exactly why.

I think it's because it doesn't actually respond to my link, evidence, or argument. You acknowledge that I made a comment, but then reassert your prior point of view, and attempt to silence further discussion by declaring your position correct, making the point moot, and implying that I'm too recalcitrant to be swayed by debate with you.

If you're not willing to engage people in discussion, and not willing to entertain an alternate narrative on the basis of evidence, perhaps you're right that continued debate won't get us anywhere. Because you're not engaging in debate: you're not adding anything new in our back-and-forth, but rather declaring it pointless given that your original position was obviously correct.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#174

Post by michaelcampbell » Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 8:49 PM UTC

thricedotted wrote: post #151

michaelcampbell wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You presume that you are prejudged, and that's bad, and then come out with something like this? > I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life. Seriously?

Yes, because the comment you made that I responded to on the first place struck me as bafflingly insensitive to the point that was being made: that this intimidation is an obstacle in and of itself. If such a situation sounds like an entirely foreign experience to you, I am inclined to believe that you have never found yourself or can imagine yourself in a similar situation, thereby belying a high measure of privileg…

Then I can only be similarly baffled by your level of naivete, or..., and I suspect this is more likely; you're simply trolling, and actually are nowhere near as baffled as you say you are, and are just using hyperbole to make a point.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#175

Post by jasonlotito » Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 9:16 PM UTC

ICanDoMore wrote: post #172

jasonlotito wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could tell the female candidate.

Two problems with this: 1) She can only bring a discrimination case if she doesn't get hired and can show it's because she was female. If they hire a better male applicant, there is no case. 2) If she brings action against them which fails, I am then wide open to libel and / or slander.

Oh, I completely realize there are problems. Just pointing out what else could be done. Also, she doesn't have to bring a case against them, nor do you need to present yourself and leave yourself open. Not sure if just letting her know anonymously would do anything for her. Personally, I'd want to avoid working in such a place.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#176

Post by wisty » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:59 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

wisty wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a tip - most laws are reasonable. Besides, no-one is likely to accuse you of harassment unless they actually feel harassed, and want to really screw you over. Are we talking about a boss frequently asking an employee on a date, despite the power difference, and the employee saying no several times? A co-worker making crude and embarrassing remarks, using sleazy pick-up lines, pulling pranks, and other crap? Or…

You aren't allowed to behave in a way that is making someone feel harassed. You don't think it's a problem that the definition of legal behavior is dependent on another person's feelings?

I think that in practice, you don't need to be psychic. I think the judge will ask "would a reasonable person know this behavior, in this context, would be likely to cause offense?". The reason for it being dependent on the other persons feelings is that you can't just say "sure, I know she's a prude, but most women wouldn't take offense to that".

Like I said, the law tries to be reasonable. Will a judge or jury say "Your behavior was that of a reasonable person, and there's no way you could have known that asking her out would cause a flashback to (whatever), but it's her feelings that matter, not yours"?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#177

Post by kstenerud » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 8:35 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #161

kstenerud wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right? This is either: 1. Someone facetiously arguing semantics. 2. Someone who believes that their pet cause trumps all others. Either way, it's a discussion ender.

It's neither, it's an honest question as to why you feel your decisions and actions (or lack thereof) are beyond reproach.

When it comes to deciding whether to champion someone's cause or not, yes.

How would you feel if someone started criticizing you for not getting on a plane to Darfur to rebuild war torn villages?

How about your choice not to get on a boat to blockade tankers?

How about your choice not to hand out flyers for the SPCA?

How about your choice not to partake in attempts to pierce Gaza blockades?

I could name many more causes you're guilty of not partaking in.

The question actually is: Are YOU justified in criticizing others who don't share your zeal in a particular cause? Because by judging others, so too are you judged.