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Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

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Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#171

Post by swiley »

threatofrain wrote: post #108
daenz wrote: post #6

An Apple recruiter recently reached out to me. I am in a fortunate position to turn down opportunities, so I made sure to explain that I am not interested in working for a company that is at the forefront of enabling further infringement on people's privacy. If you are able to push back, do it in any small way that you can.

In many ways Apple is also the world leader on consumer privacy, pushing for changes when the rest of the industry is walking in the opposite direction. Paying with Apple Pay makes you safer because it gives out minimal payment information; the Target fiasco would've been avoided. Sign in with Apple allows users to provide minimal information in signing up for accounts; the idea that casual users should know how to s…

FSF is a world leader in consumer privacy, Apple is a world leader in replacing things that could be used privately with things that cannot be.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#172

Post by simondotau »

05 wrote: post #157
simondotau wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume Apple could make it very difficult, if not impossible, to detect what they're searching for when they are using hashes created and transmitted by all their own hardware and software. Correct, it would be easy to slip in additional hashes without the team knowing what those hashes represented. HOWEVER, as soon as these additional hashes match something, the first person to see them will be an Apple employee…

Very naive to assume those hashes won't be treated differently on the backend. The most logical thing would be to send those directly to the CPC/NSA, since Apple's human review is clearly a smokescreen at the point where non-CP hashes are added.

But someone has to write code to hold multiple sets of hashes. And someone has to write the code which treats reports differently. It all has to be written and maintained. Thus developers at Apple will still know that the system is being used for something other than CSAM.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#173

Post by swiley »

88840-8855 wrote: post #9
daenz wrote: post #6

An Apple recruiter recently reached out to me. I am in a fortunate position to turn down opportunities, so I made sure to explain that I am not interested in working for a company that is at the forefront of enabling further infringement on people's privacy. If you are able to push back, do it in any small way that you can.

I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. Nobody except of a tiny group of nerdy guys (including myself, ofc) is against this apple csam move. Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends if it's "ok" to scan people's phones to find those "bad pedophiles" in order to jail then up for the rest of their life. You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in th…

I visited my parent's church earlier this year and they're all freaking out. The general consensus is that everyone should stop using smartphones.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#174

Post by threatofrain »

paulcarroty wrote: post #129
threatofrain wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many ways Apple is also the world leader on consumer privacy, pushing for changes when the rest of the industry is walking in the opposite direction. Paying with Apple Pay makes you safer because it gives out minimal payment information; the Target fiasco would've been avoided. Sign in with Apple allows users to provide minimal information in signing up for accounts; the idea that casual users should know how to s…

> is also the world leader on consumer privacy is also an early PRISM adopter and well known on cooperation with totalitarian regimes. Censoring Belarus protesters happened several months ago.

Apple isn't the Dutch East India Company. It is better to ask the citizens of the American democracy to keep their government accountable than it is to ask Apple to be so powerful that it can shrug off national governments.

You don't want CSAM scanning in the USA? Then ask your national government to change its laws requiring companies to be so vigilant against CSAM. Or we can ask that Apple become so powerful that they can shrug off the government.

That Apple cannot resist the government does not negate the observation that Apple is also a leader in consumer privacy.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#175

Post by rubslopes »

BluSyn wrote: post #28
djanogo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Virus Scanner" is optional, many ways to disable it, you won't be arrested if you are infected, and government doesn't get to decide what virus is. Apple scanning is NOT optional, if they have false match or mess up you will be charged/investigated for one of THE most hated crimes in human history, even if you win the case the damage will be irreparable. You lost your mind if you think governments are not going to s…

It is optional to use iCloud Photos. There's no indication you get arrested if they find something, it isn't reported directly to FBI. Apple will just disable your account, and there is an appeals process to restore it if they made a mistake. There's more nuance here beyond the clickbait headlines.

> Apple will just disable your account

That's the only thing they are going to do? That can't be right. What's the point, then?

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#176

Post by alexvoda »

threatofrain wrote: post #108
daenz wrote: post #6

An Apple recruiter recently reached out to me. I am in a fortunate position to turn down opportunities, so I made sure to explain that I am not interested in working for a company that is at the forefront of enabling further infringement on people's privacy. If you are able to push back, do it in any small way that you can.

In many ways Apple is also the world leader on consumer privacy, pushing for changes when the rest of the industry is walking in the opposite direction. Paying with Apple Pay makes you safer because it gives out minimal payment information; the Target fiasco would've been avoided. Sign in with Apple allows users to provide minimal information in signing up for accounts; the idea that casual users should know how to s…

As always when talking about security and privacy, you need to understand the threat model. Apple protects users from some threats while also becoming itself the biggest threat to users. And this is exactly what Apple wants. This is how you use Stockholm syndrome to entrench a feudal system.

The relationship is not 3-way as Apple wants users to believe (Apple the defender, users the victim, third-parties the aggressor). The map of the territory is a lot more complex.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#177

Post by npteljes »

roenxi wrote: post #89
npteljes wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yeah with the small difference that the virus scanner reports to you Important to note that in case of the Win 10 Defender and its default settings, executables, and hashes of other files are uploaded to Microsoft automatically. Much less worse than a csam false positive reporting someone to the authorities, but not really "reporting to you" either.

If Microsoft were explicit that they were trying to look at your personal files and were then going to send the police to your house based on what the hashes were, that would be a big issue to.

I hope so!

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#178

Post by idunnoman »

koopmenistan wrote: post #153
idunnoman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not telling at all. Not a single person arguing against this idea is being obtuse or insensitive to the very real problem of CSAM. This is why you are getting the eye roll induced "think of the children" arguments. Yes, we get it. We agree. It's bad. We don't like it either. But this isn't going to solve anything and IS going to break security and privacy. It's a bad trade.

>> Pushing Spyware Engine is literally abuse to all people including children and it's much worse then any problem they would claim to fight. Even if you believe them. >> It is an attempt to legalize such Spyware Engine installation. Nothing more. The story is just to sell this move using emotional response from naive people . >> Those people should be educated what the real abuse is and they should teach their child…

Yeah - fair point. I've over stated my position.

I'll re-commit to "most" people criticizing.

I will restate that regardless of the poor taste, it doesn't change the points validity.

But you are correct. I did miss their minimization of the issue. Obviously due to my own bias.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#179

Post by nbzso »

goekydoeky wrote: post #165
nbzso wrote: post #87

Let me tell you my perspective as a screeching minority long time Apple user. You may be right. We as professionals that evangelized a lot of people for Apple, don't have power or influence over core target of Apple of today. Yep. But I can assure you that I personally, as my colleagues will do everything in our powers to hurt Apples public image and brand, to give real information to our clients, friends and familie…

Wow. The misalignment of priorities and character deficiencies one requires to actually type this message and mean it is simply breathtaking. Talk to someone, please. You are unwell if this message is genuine. Even if you grant every argument against this system it’s still just poking through your photos at the end of the day. Get angry enough to tell people “go to hell” about half the planet being on fire or somethi…

Seriously? Breathtaking? Talking to someone? Is astonishing to me how "smart" and "educated" people are lost in meaningless details of technological implementation when we are witnessing assault on privacy and personal space on a global level. Let me help you understand something important: Sitting in comfort and relative security cannot give you a real life perspective of long term impact of this system. The long term effect will be the normalization of surveillance state. You don't need people to "See something, say something" you just trust a corporation working with database provided by third party (governments) without any form of public oversight. Without open source software and with proven record of abuse (see China servers case) and proven record of exploits (see NSO/Pegasus). And I have to talk to someone?:) Please, grow up.

I have lived part of my life under communistic regime. The political language of personal invasion under the name of "common good" was the public mantra and abuse of the system was a everyday reality.

When secret services are taking away your mother on a "signal" received from "trusted procedure" created under the wisdom of the Party Elites you cannot do anything. Trust me.

Re: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship

#180

Post by janeroe »

gabrielblack wrote: post #96

My opinion about: 1. Every pedophile know about the existence of this system, so I don't think it will be useful to fight those monster, maybe only marginally; 2. Anyway, is that legal ? Even if some crazy store material on his Apple hardware isn't that illegal search non usable in law courts ? 3. Child abuse is often used as Trojan horse to introduce questionable practice. What if: - the system is used to looking fo…

> What if: the system is used to looking for dissidents ... / espionage ... / profiling ...

Not if. When.

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