Live data from Hacker News

A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

npr.org

171–180 of 198 posts

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#171
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Just like the eu was good for the uk until they decided it wasn't. Except the issue of secession was settled in the affirmative there and in the negative here. You'd be hard pressed to argue the confederacy wanted to take over the union and then impose slavery on the free states. I mean, you could make the argument, but it's more likely to me they simply wanted to leave and continue enslaving people. I don't…

All states have a right to leave the EU by treaty - it was inserted to defuse a previous bout of Euroscepticism that argued by analogy with the US civil war that union author a secession right was tyranny. I can't see its use being refused: that would disintegrate the bloc. And there was no question that we (the Brits) wouldn't be allowed to, so the precedent has been set. I would imagine a few tweaks to the Article…

> but it's no longer in dispute on principle.

It was also not in dispute in the first constitution of the united states, but they just did away with that for funsies (I'm being facetious). I imagine we'll see something similar in the EU as the bloc becomes more integrated.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optimal power ratio is one person equals one unit of power. The problem is any change to the Constitution would require 2/3 of the states to agree. Many of those states require supermajorities to pass an amendment. Generally any change that's big enough to go into the Constitution is big enough that a few people will oppose it. A few people is all it takes. We can't even pass an "equal rights for women" amendment…

You need 2/3 to propose an amendment for ratification via a constitutional convention, but the actual ratification requires 3/4, so it's even harder. It also makes for some weird power dynamics due to extreme imbalance in state sizes. Specifically, we're at the point where the top 1/4 (i.e 12) most populated states together contain 60% of the population, and the remaining 3/4 contain the other 40%. Thus, if small sta…

>we are apt to rest satisfied that all is safe, because nothing improper will be likely TO BE DONE, but we forget how much good may be prevented, and how much ill may be produced, by the power of hindering the doing what may be necessary, and of keeping affairs in the same unfavorable posture

Wow, he nailed it. I was just reflecting on this peculiarity with friends. China, for an easy-to-grab example, is able to "move fast and break things" but the US, we need the two houses of Congress and the executive to line up, and if not all three are walking the same direction, we have grid-lock, which at some times seems by-design and at other times, seems only to our detriment with "how much good may be prevented."

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optimal power ratio is one person equals one unit of power. The problem is any change to the Constitution would require 2/3 of the states to agree. Many of those states require supermajorities to pass an amendment. Generally any change that's big enough to go into the Constitution is big enough that a few people will oppose it. A few people is all it takes. We can't even pass an "equal rights for women" amendment…

> We can't even pass an "equal rights for women" amendment Why do you think an amendment would help any supposed problem with that? Equal rights for women are already mandated.

The extremely fraught battle over the actual Equal Rights Amendment would seem to disagree with the idea that this is a settled issue.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a drastic oversimplification of the case. What happened in 2008 was a culmination of a long process that started long before then. I would argue that the starting point was the 1989 essay "The embarrassing 2nd Amendment" [1] by Sanford Levinson, who is not exactly known for his conservative views otherwise. In general, as with every other Supreme Court case, I would recommend going to the primary source and r…

Your comment is a Straw Man. My intention was not to summarize the case. Changing the Founders intended meaning of the 2nd to include self-defense was really outrageously skew to the case itself, and entirely unnecessary and irrelevant to the case and the 2nd. It is brazenly false NRA propaganda from the early 20th Century come to fruition and provably not the Founders' intention. The case is incidental, because its…

The "provably not the Founders' intention" part is the one where you're wrong, and the court opinion specifically discusses this, which is why I recommend that people read it before jumping to conclusions.

By the way, one thing that's often forgotten is that 2A itself was merely an adaptation of similar clauses in state constitutions at the time (many of which explicitly spelled out self-defense as a motivation). At the same time, the original Bill of Rights was all about limiting what the federal government can do, and didn't originally limit the states at all; it was assumed that the respective state constitutions would take care of that, presumably, by expressing the will of their citizens through their own democratic mechanisms. So it's no surprise that the discussion focused mostly on militia - that was the primary concern of the states wrt potential federal government overreach.

When 14A was ratified, and then BoR amendments gradually incorporated against the states, the courts had to reinterpret them accordingly. For example, 1A says that "Congress shall make no law ...", for the same exact reason: the people who wrote it were originally concerned specifically about the power of the federal government. But today, we interpret it as applying to state governments as well, and rather more expansively - and I would hope you'll agree that it's a good thing!

BTW, you seem to be unaware that pro-gun sentiment is alive and well outside of the radical right today - it didn't end with Black Panthers. Some prominent examples include John Brown Gun Club and Huey P. Newton Gun Club.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#175
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need 2/3 to propose an amendment for ratification via a constitutional convention, but the actual ratification requires 3/4, so it's even harder. It also makes for some weird power dynamics due to extreme imbalance in state sizes. Specifically, we're at the point where the top 1/4 (i.e 12) most populated states together contain 60% of the population, and the remaining 3/4 contain the other 40%. Thus, if small sta…

>we are apt to rest satisfied that all is safe, because nothing improper will be likely TO BE DONE, but we forget how much good may be prevented, and how much ill may be produced, by the power of hindering the doing what may be necessary, and of keeping affairs in the same unfavorable posture Wow, he nailed it. I was just reflecting on this peculiarity with friends. China, for an easy-to-grab example, is able to "mov…

There are surprisingly many things in the Federalist Papers that read very pertinent today. This is also from #22:

"Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Deleware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. Sophistry may reply, that sovereigns are equal, and that a majority of the votes of the States will be a majority of confederated America. But this kind of logical legerdemain will never counteract the plain suggestions of justice and common-sense. It may happen that this majority of States is a small minority of the people of America; and two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third. The larger States would after a while revolt from the idea of receiving the law from the smaller. To acquiesce in such a privation of their due importance in the political scale, would be not merely to be insensible to the love of power, but even to sacrifice the desire of equality. It is neither rational to expect the first, nor just to require the last. The smaller States, considering how peculiarly their safety and welfare depend on union, ought readily to renounce a pretension which, if not relinquished, would prove fatal to its duration."

Or here's another one (#41):

"But if the Union, as has been shown, be essential to the security of the people of America against foreign danger; if it be essential to their security against contentions and wars among the different States; if it be essential to guard them against those violent and oppressive factions which embitter the blessings of liberty, and against those military establishments which must gradually poison its very fountain; if, in a word, the Union be essential to the happiness of the people of America, is it not preposterous, to urge as an objection to a government, without which the objects of the Union cannot be attained, that such a government may derogate from the importance of the governments of the individual States? Was, then, the American Revolution effected, was the American Confederacy formed, was the precious blood of thousands spilt, and the hard-earned substance of millions lavished, not that the people of America should enjoy peace, liberty, and safety, but that the government of the individual States, that particular municipal establishments, might enjoy a certain extent of power, and be arrayed with certain dignities and attributes of sovereignty? We have heard of the impious doctrine in the Old World, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the New, in another shape that the solid happiness of the people is to be sacrificed to the views of political institutions of a different form? It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object. Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public happiness, my voice would be, Reject the plan. Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public happiness, it would be, Abolish the Union. In like manner, as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the people, the voice of every good citizen must be, Let the former be sacrificed to the latter."

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, the fact that Fugitive Slave Acts were passed back in the day would indicate that centralization isn't any more viable.

Centralization isn't viable when you give literal slavers undue influence in government, yes.

"You give" implies the ability to decide that. The problem is that there's always the threat of people such as slavers, religious fanatics, ethnonationalists etc coming to power. The more that power is centralized, the more they can do with it.

And yes, conversely, when power is decentralized, you don't get "benevolent dictators" who might otherwise do some good. My point is that this argument doesn't really work if applied consistently in all cases - or, at least, not without more digging into the specifics of costs vs benefits. Personally, I'm not convinced that centralization is a net good overall, if only because it makes large standing armies possible.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only gun nutters believe in the right to self defense? No. Only gun nutters believe the source of their right to self-defense comes from the 2nd, while the rest of us have that right whether there is a 2nd Amendment or not. > Do you know who the militia is in the United States? Are you aware every able bodied male citizen between 17 and 45 are considered militia? Are you aware that the purpose of a militia is not s…

>Only gun nutters believe the source of their right to self-defense comes from the 2nd, while the rest of us have that right whether there is a 2nd Amendment or not. Arms are ubiquitous in modern times and the second amendment enshrines the ability for those such as the disabled and women to have a fighting chance against a violent attacker. So you're right, it only protects a certain form of self defense by virtue o…

> the second amendment enshrines the ability for those such as the disabled and women to have a fighting chance against a violent attacker

The 2nd Amendment never had anything to do with crime and self-defense prior to DC v. Heller 2008. Militias do not enforce law. It also, fwiw, has nothing to do with hunting. The sole original purpose of the 2nd was to be a check against tyranny. That is all it ever was until Justice Scalia invented the idea that the 2nd Amendment was a right of self-defense because most Americans (incorrectly) believed that it was... but it was not and is not true that most Americans believed a right of self-defense was included in the 2nd, only those repeating the false propaganda of the NRA.

> Since we've gone off to the first amendment, do you believe "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" only applies to an organized militia and not individual people?

You missed the point, but I'd like to see a single individual try to peacefully assemble.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is a Straw Man. My intention was not to summarize the case. Changing the Founders intended meaning of the 2nd to include self-defense was really outrageously skew to the case itself, and entirely unnecessary and irrelevant to the case and the 2nd. It is brazenly false NRA propaganda from the early 20th Century come to fruition and provably not the Founders' intention. The case is incidental, because its…

The "provably not the Founders' intention" part is the one where you're wrong, and the court opinion specifically discusses this, which is why I recommend that people read it before jumping to conclusions. By the way, one thing that's often forgotten is that 2A itself was merely an adaptation of similar clauses in state constitutions at the time (many of which explicitly spelled out self-defense as a motivation). At…

> The "provably not the Founders' intention" part is the one where you're wrong, and the court opinion specifically discusses this, which is why I recommend that people read it before jumping to conclusions.

I am afraid not. The court may have had a historical review before discussion, but they did not examine the minutes of the Constitutional Congress, where it can be read plain as day that the Founders discussed at length and intentionally rejected including a right of self-defense in the 2nd. They talked about it and decided against it. To be plain, the Framers of the Constitution did want an armed citizenry, but only for the purposes of militia, and militia for the purposes of a check on tyranny, not for crime or hunting. Back then, pretty much everyone was armed, and they wanted the armed citizenry to form militia and they wanted to prevent the government from disarming the militia. The 2nd was never about about an individual's right of self-defense. Everyone has a right of self-defense, and we do not need the 2nd Amendment to have that right. The court's decision regarding the 2nd in that 2008 case was literally pulled out of thin air, and it will only stand until someone gets around to correcting it, and it may be a technicality, but it's wrong to include self-defense because it weakens the Amendment and reduces or eliminates any check on tyranny.

The point about the Black Panthers was simply to illustrate a proper exercise of the 2nd Amendment in that famous instance at he Alameda County courthouse. Just being a gun club is not an exercise of the 2nd (in its original intent) unless that club arms themselves and assembles in such a way to put themselves' in harms way to prevent tyranny from succeeding.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Only gun nutters believe the source of their right to self-defense comes from the 2nd, while the rest of us have that right whether there is a 2nd Amendment or not. Arms are ubiquitous in modern times and the second amendment enshrines the ability for those such as the disabled and women to have a fighting chance against a violent attacker. So you're right, it only protects a certain form of self defense by virtue o…

> the second amendment enshrines the ability for those such as the disabled and women to have a fighting chance against a violent attacker The 2nd Amendment never had anything to do with crime and self-defense prior to DC v. Heller 2008. Militias do not enforce law. It also, fwiw, has nothing to do with hunting. The sole original purpose of the 2nd was to be a check against tyranny. That is all it ever was until Just…

So which people are allowed to peaceably assemble? How about my wife and I? What if we also want to bear arms?

Having the ability to defend against tyranny with a weapon doesn't mean you drop your right to self defense. The 2nd amendment absolutely protects the right to bear arms as a check against tyranny. I don't understand your bone to pick as to why someone bearing arms couldn't defend themselves with them.

Edit: The bill of rights doesn't outright state a right to self defense. I'd like to see you argue why someone who bears arms (which is their right per 2A) shouldn't be able to defend their life with the arms that they have. If someone starts violently attacking my kid with a knife, do you seriously think I shouldn't be able to use arms to protect them because that's not the tyranny of the government? 2A doesn't say you have the right to keep and bear arms except in self defense. Fortunately for me, I'll be killed or imprisoned for life before someone like you takes my right to armed self defense away -- because that is the only way I'll ever stop keeping my means of self defense.

Re: A bad grade that changed the U.S. constitution (2017)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it could have just as easily discouraged the student and lead them to think that there's nothing there. I hardly doubt being given an A+ and being encouraged and told that he had quite an idea there would have led him to abandon the enterprise. Too often exceptional students perform despite poor teaching practices, and then we look to the poor teaching practices as the root of the success.

What constitutes the root of success is up to the reader and I don't think the article mentioned that. The student happened to put his paper into action, sent letters to legislators and got responses and caught one of the chances to change the history. I think that's just life.

I mean, the whole article is framed to indicate that the poor grade is what resulted in this mans pursuit to amend the constitution.

The headline is literally "The Bad Grade That Changed The U.S. Constitution"

The teacher goes on to say of herself "You have, just by making this fellow a grade he didn't like, affected the U.S. Constitution more than any of your fellow professors ever thought about it, and how ironic is that?"

The article also insinuates that Watson only began lobbying to change the grade. "Most people would have just taken the grade and left it at that. Gregory Watson is not most people."

Post reply on HN