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Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

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171–180 of 259 posts

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#171
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have some achievements to show. New Shepard was the first to land vertically. That's not nothing. Sorry, but the McDonnell Douglas DC-X did the rocket straight up & down vertical landing in 1993. New Shepard frankly wasn't particularly different. It went higher and longer sure, but for orbital rocketry the challenge isn't height so much as speed and everything that comes with that. The Falcon 9 flight 20 at th…

> silly little PR stunt The media has been grossly unfair to Bezos. What Bezos actually did was risk his own neck in the first manned flight of a totally new rocket design. It was a massive display of faith in his engineering team. Musk didn't do that. Branson didn't do that - and earlier test pilots of his craft died. As for the BO rocket being totally automated, that was the original intent of the Mercury missions,…

>The media has been grossly unfair to Bezos.

I honestly think you have it backwards: the media has been very kind to both Bezos and Branson, particularly the latter. This isn't surprising because the media doesn't really get orbital dynamics any more than they get most technical topics. Nevertheless a lot of them act as if Branson's and Bezos' flight were some big technical achievements or progress forward, as if they can just evolve the designs around the current limitations.

They cannot. Hybrid engines have garbage ISP, the entire design of the Unity is completely worthless for high speed period let alone reentry, every $ spent on it is pointless beyond a quick joyride that will relatively soon be obsoleted by real space tourism. NS is at least vaguely sort of more useful for BO, it has a hydrolox engine so it's not doing anything for them on that front but they got to work on their landing a bit somewhat more easily.

But the value of space comes from actually getting to orbit and then beyond, and that's a fantastically more difficult problem due to the delta-v needed, the rocket equation, our material science, etc. SpaceX's approach of focusing on the real hard problem which delivers serious revenue and opportunity then working backwards on economics, always with focus on orbit as their lodestone, has clearly been much more effective. BO is older than SpaceX and has yet to even once get to orbit or deal with reentry. At all. It's hard not to look at so much of NS and just see such a waste of years and dollars.

>What Bezos actually did was risk his own neck in the first manned flight of a totally new rocket design.

I guess? It had been flown and landed multiple times and it had a lot of margin to work with since it's just a big sounding rocket. They did a hyperconservative work-on-the-first-launch Old Space development process.

>Musk didn't do that.

You think Musk wasn't puckered launching 6 astronauts and tens of billions of dollars worth of other people's precious cargo to space? Musk didn't do that because it wouldn't have proved anything and been a pure waste and distraction from the actual serious mission.

>Branson didn't do that - and earlier test pilots of his craft died.

Branson is a daredevil and that design is garbage on a host of levels.

>As for the BO rocket being totally automated

So is Dragon 2. So will Starship. That's normal and good, it's manual that's bad. But it's also not a special achievement that justified 6 years after first launch and landing.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#172
post #68
post #3

It's really a shame what has happened to Blue Origin. They've gone from a promising space startup to yet another purveyor of perpetual vaporware. Where is the BE-4 engine? Delayed, again and again. New Glenn, the rocket that could actually go into orbit? Same. So far their only functioning hardware (New Shephard) is, in effect, a glorified amusement park ride. Considering that SpaceX has actually made it to orbit mul…

Forget orbit, SpaceX has paid for it's ISS contract about 3x in savings over Soyuz. Congress would be dumb to pick a new horse now.

> Congress would be dumb to

You must be new here.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all ways to squander the Earth's limited resources while sounding forward thinking. Colonizing Mars will likely never happen, there is simply no upside: huge challenges, with no interesting resources. The Earth has plenty of space, we're limited by resources, and there are no interesting resources on Mars. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that we'll have a colony outside the solar system before a colony…

> The Earth has plenty of space, we're limited by resources, and there are no interesting resources on Mars There are new discoveries on Earth even today, after hundreds of thousands year of mankind history. What make you think we have known all we need to know about Mars? > I wouldn't be surprised to find out that we'll have a colony outside the solar system before a colony on Mars. Mars is a 8 month journey. Alpha…

> Mars is a 8 month journey. Alpha Centauri, the nearest star, is a 296,000 year journey using the current propulsion technology. We'll have colonized every single colonizable planets in the Solar System before then.

Sure, but there is nothing on Mars. We have no reason to colonize places that lack even the basic resources necessary for life, or some precious resources that are scarce on Earth. At least with a different star system, you can imagine that in some far flung future we may need to escape the expansion of the Sun (though assuming humanity survives for some billions of years is indeed unlikely).

> Future of humanity depends on advance in science. Space exploration has always been a major force that drives science forward, asteroid mining included. So many examples to list, but just to pick one:

I'm not sure what the article was supposed to show, is spectroscopy a technology invented as part of the space program?

It's true that a product of the spave program are advanced materials and other factors that can be re-used on the Earth. But this is more a question of the vast resources which were invested in the space race, which could as well have been invested in Earth programs and would have likely yielded similar results.

Teh most valuable results of the space programs have been communications satellites and things like the hubble space telescope - which has done far more for scientific space exploration than the entire Apollo program, as have the Voyager probes, Mars rover etc.

Manned space exploration may still serve an inspirational purpose, though. I absolutely admit that the social and inspirational impact of seeing a human on the Moon/Mars/in outer space is hard to beat.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NASA is a taxpayer boondoggle. The faster we can transition wasting tax dollars on it to the private sector and dismantle the agency the better.

Hell no. Space exploration and expansion should absolutely NOT be in the hands of corporations but an government funded entity that contracts out work as we have now. If every government program should be profitable.

Space exploration and expansion shouldn’t be in the hands of the government in the first place. Let the private sector figure out how to do it, pay for it, and profit on it.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#175
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 'jobs agency' that has produced a whole lot of technical advancements, maybe.

NASA is a taxpayer boondoggle. The faster we can transition wasting tax dollars on it to the private sector and dismantle the agency the better.

The problem isn't NASA. It's congresscritters.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#176

Anyone has insight into what BO's problems are? I heard that they had leadership problems but otherwise a top notch staff. People love to flame Jeff Bezos but if you look at his management of Amazon, I wouldn't dismiss him casually with regard to BO. He might not have the engineering chops of Musk but I'm sure he can put the right leadership in place to turn this ship around, now that he'll be focusing on this full t…

Brad Stone's newest book about Amazon goes into it. In short, Bezos hired leadership poorly. Those hires led to a culture akin to a legacy rocket company like ULA.

You know the meme about devs going to Google to rest and vest? That's the reputation Blue Origin has in the space industry according to Stone.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#177
post #32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call them what you want. They pushed the world forward, period.

Going to the moon again is pushing the world forward? Why? Humans got there and there's been no reason to go back

Well there is the prospect of mining, refining, and construction in space and on the moon. While all that presents a whole slew of new challenges, it also has many huge benefits.

Rockets use like 90% of their fuel just getting their payload into off of Earth, refining fuels on the moon would make going any place else in the solar system super cheap. Building ships already in space would allow much lighter designs and less constricted spaces as it doesn't have to survive an external atmosphere and intense winds. It also makes asteroid capturing and mining feasible, currently we would need an almost perfectly ideal asteroid to capture because we can't get that much fuel up into space to push an asteroid around much at all. We open up tons of potential candidates if we can make even small amounts of fuel off of Earth.

Capture even a small platinum asteroid and nudge it into a collision course with Antarctica and you just made platinum stupid cheap which has a bazillion amazing uses but currently costs ridiculous amounts of money. It would be worth more than the entirety of all space programs on Earth combined, just to do it once.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#178
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all ways to squander the Earth's limited resources while sounding forward thinking. Colonizing Mars will likely never happen, there is simply no upside: huge challenges, with no interesting resources. The Earth has plenty of space, we're limited by resources, and there are no interesting resources on Mars. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that we'll have a colony outside the solar system before a colony…

Musk's motivation, which he has expressed repeatedly, is to make humanity resilient to an event that makes Earth uninhabitable. Whatever that event might be (asteroid impact, nuclear war, environmental catastrophe, plague, whatever), I think the idea of having a second site of human habitation is not an unreasonable goal. Which is not, as has sometimes been stated, "giving up on Earth and the rich moving to Mars" --…

Humans surviving long term off of Earth, I think, is still just a pipe dream and pure sci-fi. I agree with the idea, I think it is something humanity should attempt, but it is atleast 100 years too soon to even attempt.

It is like trying to build a space station in the 18th or 19th century.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#179
post #98
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would it be better if C, Java and Rust were integrated into a single überlanguage with one central committee to drive further development? Yes! They need different runtimes, but there's a lot of infractructure they could have been reusing. It's a shame we have a couple dozen language silos that have to reinvent everything.

You mean like Rust (and Zig initially) building on top of LLVM? Or like the dozen languages that coexist on top of the JVM? Rarely does a new language build everything from scratch, and the parts they build new are often progress.

Yes, but also build tools and package management.

I'm not blaming the authors. It's not any one language's responsibility to make tooling stacks modular and interoperable.

Re: Jeff Bezos loses attempt to block the Moon-landing contract NASA gave to SpaceX

#180
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 'jobs agency' that has produced a whole lot of technical advancements, maybe.

NASA is a taxpayer boondoggle. The faster we can transition wasting tax dollars on it to the private sector and dismantle the agency the better.

NASA is one of the biggest bangs (literally) for the taxpayer buck in the entire US federal budget. There are countless other agencies I'd be scrapping long before even thinking about scrapping NASA.
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