Live data from Hacker News

Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

simplethread.com

171–180 of 320 posts

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know why it's "easy" to blame "management"? Because they often don't understand the technology question or even what the issue is, but insist to intercept every decision.

The air quotes sell it. It's easy to blame management because developers and engineers haven't the foggiest idea what management actually does. Instead of engaging with that problem, they retreat to themselves where they hiss the name management in dark corners. Fact is: Developers are incapable of self organising, and would drown overnight without management's stiff hand. I absolutely hate how accurate that is becau…

I've found the opposite to be true. Management is what chases the quick buck and not the long term scalability of more money.

When I first started we would be doing 1-off feature requests "because the client would _really_ like it". Everything was justified because money and because "we cant afford to lose that customer!" in our SaaS product.

I saw our main product being neglected because we'd invest so much time in these 1 off features only 1 client would use. All we would ever do would be client features, I was going crazy. It took a lot of talking, and still to this day I have to get him to think in terms of the product instead of the individual client.

Now we make more money, have more clients, and better our product for everyone which in turn gets more clients to get more money.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#172
That is too bad. When I first read the Manifesto, I said “These folks got it!”

I tend to work that way, now.

Myself.

Things get difficult in teams. Especially cross-disciplinary teams, and aggregate efforts.

Much as we like to denigrate managers (DISCLAIMER: I was one), they are necessary; and not as a “necessary evil.” Good managers can be amazingly effective and well worth it.

Unfortunately, like in any vocation, the good ones are rare. The same goes for good software developers.

The Agile Manifesto was written by a group of working software engineers, with decades of experience, at the top of their game.

Precisely the type of engineer that today’s hiring process tends to filter out. They don’t really represent the current field of practitioners.

Like so many “perfect world” scenarios, the Agile Manifesto was designed for a “perfect audience.” As the article points out, when the manifesto hit the real (imperfect) world, the wheels fell off. To make matters worse, the designers tend to get huffy, and blame the people making a hash of it; which doesn’t make friends. They may be technically correct, but humans are messy, chaotic beings, that tend to have highly individual worldviews, abilities, intelligence, education, experience, workflows, and motivations. Most folks expected to actually implement an objective bear little resemblance to the ones that developed the plan. If the planner fails to account for this, then (in my opinion, as a planner) it’s the planner’s fault.

That kind of sums up human history. Groups of elite thinkers develop a Grand Plan, then it gets bloodied and bruised, once it hits the proletariat. Sometimes, with horrendous results (Cultural Revolution, anyone?).

As someone that actually designed a successful system for the proles[0], I can report that designing real-world solutions for a distributed, heterodox, self-driven, target audience is difficult, messy, unintuitive, humbling, frustrating, and, quite often, absolutely infuriating. Not the kind of work that folks at the top of their game like to do. Frankly, it sucks, but I think that it’s also the best way to make something that actually has a chance.

I wanted to add that follow-through is also important. When I designed the system I referenced, I did it with an understanding that it would be a years-long commitment. It's like having children: Making them is fun. Having them is easy. Raising them, however, is not fun, and not easy.

But we need to do it. For myself, I spent ten years, traveling around, giving presentations, classes, gladhanding, answering questions that I thought "should have been obvious," suffering some withering attacks, and fine-tuning the system, as I realized I screwed something up. I also went around, looking for successors. I wanted to become obsolete (which I have).

But that’s just my experience. YMMV.

[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/bmlt/

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is (IMHO) the biggest single miss in most attempts to be "Agile". The customer/end user is supposed to be embedded in the team, doing actual work with the program, raw and hacky as it may be. This way the feedback is immediate and accurate. Passively watching smoke and mirror demos once every sprint is a far cry from this. Of course, this isn't applicable/possible for all types of software (you can't really iter…

One key part of this that a lot of businesses miss is that this means that every member of the team shoul have direct contact with thw customer, not just a "point of contact"

This is a good point. However in practice we wind up with a number of gatekeepers between the developer and the actual users. These gatekeepers are both on the customer side and the developer side. For example on the developer side, sales people typically do not like being disintermediated since it reduces their relevance. On the customer side, managers often do not want outside developers bothering their workers.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are nearly zero "must spend, at any cost" situations in business, so no I don't agree with you assertion that "it's not a question if something is worth doing". It's always a question if something is worth doing. I've seen your argument many, many times before, and it comes from people who have divorced their understanding of value from their understanding of work. You don't get paid to work, you get paid to pr…

This means you were lucky and got to work in those isolated environments where you never had to migrate such an ancient system without compromise and 100.00% identical operation or dealing with "we must have/support x, no matter what, cost is off the table". I've been through that countless times. Migrating ancient systems, writing drivers for hardware with close to 0 documentation or specification, "ads absolutely i…

Even when a company is facing an existential crisis, your estimation is important to help decide if they need to provide additional resources or even replace you if you're not able to do the job (among many other things). They're not going to throw money at you forever, and demanding blind trust is completely unreasonable, especially so in an existential crisis.

There is simply never a situation where not having a sense of when work will be completed is acceptable. You cannot concoct a scenario where that's okay, and the fact that you're trying to kind of reinforces my point about work vs. value. There is no "infinite value" scenario, that doesn't exist.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#175
I've been giving this some thought recently. Ultimately I blame Scrum, it is so poorly aligned with sustainable software engineering and so widely open to interpretation that its no wonder that every project seems to inevitably end in big rewrites. Scrum gives all the godly power to a product owner, invents a baby sitter in the scrum master and leaves everyone else to be the "dev team". I know there will be statements about it should be collaborative blah blah, but the fact is the named roles have gravitas and the amount of responsibly in the product owner individual is untenable.

There is also then the wildly misunderstood aspect of estimation. In my experience the only value beyond saying a feature is easy or hard is that it does spark discussion among engineers, the irony being if said discussion goes on for too long it usually gets shut down. Adding estimates to work you are going to do within the next 2 weeks seems of limited value, it changes no behaviour you will still do the work.

I feel we would be better served by reinforcing the principle that all of our purposes within the organisation is to deliver a quality product for the customer.

Product development is responsible for taking ideas and generating specifications for product features while software engineering are responsible for taking specifications and implementing them within a software product. This simple process should be monitored and systematically improved to deliver better on the core principle.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#176
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds soul-crushing and I hope never to work in such an environment.

> This sounds soul-crushing and I hope never to work in such an environment. It isn't. Soul-crushing is doing "Agile" where the "scrum master" tells you how long each ticket will take, where the client is invisible and never involved, and where retro is 1 hour at the end of the sprint and focused on blame.

The "scrum master" is not telling you how long a ticket will take. They're asking you, can you break this ticket down any further?

I see that you have a task to implement validation in the phone number field, can we break that down into three tasks? Determining the format which needs to be applied and edge cases, adding validation to the field on the client side, and also on the server side?

Right away, thinking about it this way may reveal certain unknowns which you had not previously thought about. And all of it took an extra minute or two. While your team-mates are also engaged and "THERE" to help.

Later you can see which of the tasks took longer or less than expected, and use this to improve your future estimates (during the retro.)

This is only skimming the top of the types of benefits you can gain from a good Agile process.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#177
post #97
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental problem with Agile This is not what the article is about. If you look at the Agile Manifesto, it says e.g. - Individuals and interactions over processes and tools - Responding to change over following a plan What you get in quite a few big companies following "Agile" with the air quotes is the opposite: - Processes and tools over individuals and interactions - Following (and making) a plan over resp…

It’s easy to blame management. In my experience the radicalism of some agile coaches and scrum masters helps to fuel the divide significantly.

It’s easy to blame management but there are also good reasons for it.

The naïve thing to do when you’re a manager is to manage more in response to problems. When you start out with an agile process, and you manage more / manage harder, you end up with no agile process at all.

Scrum masters / agile coaches are very hit or miss. Just like managers, just like programmers. Management takes the blame because their failures have a larger blast radius.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This means you were lucky and got to work in those isolated environments where you never had to migrate such an ancient system without compromise and 100.00% identical operation or dealing with "we must have/support x, no matter what, cost is off the table". I've been through that countless times. Migrating ancient systems, writing drivers for hardware with close to 0 documentation or specification, "ads absolutely i…

Even when a company is facing an existential crisis, your estimation is important to help decide if they need to provide additional resources or even replace you if you're not able to do the job (among many other things). They're not going to throw money at you forever, and demanding blind trust is completely unreasonable, especially so in an existential crisis. There is simply never a situation where not having a se…

Pretty sure I just gave you 3 examples where no one cared how much X would cost. "We want it by Q3, figure it out". Where is the documentation? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Who built the old system? "Last one died in 98". Who knows how X works? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯, you're smart, you'll figure it out, just remember, Q3". As I said you're either lucky or speaking from the so called "top management" perspective. Things look very different for average Joe.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#179
post #78

The biggest problem I have with agile is the absoluteness of its proponents. “There is no other truth than agile, and if you don’t agree you’re old/immoral/…”. It’s the sad combination of not being open to test other approaches and condemnation of people questioning it.

I haven't met anyone who is a real agile evangelist since ~2010, don't see how this could be the biggest problem.

Most common is the manager or consultant pushing Scrum who doesn't even know what the Agile manifesto is.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#180
post #154
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to blame management. In my experience the radicalism of some agile coaches and scrum masters helps to fuel the divide significantly.

The existence of coaches and scrum masters is the result of decisions of management, that see agile as a way of getting daily reports from the team through the daily standup. I don’t think that people who don't write or never wrote software should have a place in a software development team. We don’t allow scrum masters and agile coaches in hospitals and ask them to “improve the process”, because we know the only “im…

> We don’t allow scrum masters and agile coaches in hospitals

They're not called scrum masters but the healthcare industry is absolutely full of them. One peculiar thing about the covid crisis was, at least around this particular corner of the planet, in the all-hands-on-deck situation where everyone on the floor in healthcare had to help out, these people suddenly found other things to do. It was impressive to see what could be accomplished when everyone was focused on a singular goal, without a coach in sight. I'm sure there's a lesson there somewhere.

Post reply on HN