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Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

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Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#171

Post by ars »

throwawayboise wrote: post #167
Infernal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From wikipedia[0] "it is possible to mechanically recharge the battery with new aluminium anodes made from recycling the hydrated aluminium oxide". I've found a few papers regarding recovery of aluminum from aluminum oxides, but I don't have the background to interpret them with an eye towards that process's impact on the overall efficiency of the battery. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

Production of aluminum metal from aluminum oxide is hugely energy-intensive. Aluminum plants often have an on-site utility-size power plant to provide the electricity. Is this same energy needed to recycle the oxide from the batteries? If so it seems like a non-starter, maybe unless it could be done with solar generation.

> Is this same energy needed to recycle the oxide from the batteries?

The energy delivered by the battery in flight, is what you need to use to restore it back to fresh. The more energy you need the better your battery.

Why does it need to be specifically solar? Use electric from the grid, and as the entire grid changes over to other power sources so will this.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#172

Post by ars »

throwawayboise wrote: post #166
Tossrock wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said for a while that electric planes are the perfect use case for aluminum-air batteries. Aluminum-air batteries have up to 8x the energy density of lithium ion, but are not rechargeable, so using them only makes sense if you have a system to recycle the used batteries. This doesn't make a ton of sense with cars, because cars are constantly going from random place to random place, and having to include a stop a…

Small tertiary airports often served by short regional flights don't have a lot of infrastructure. They have a couple of fuel trucks and a gate agent/security screener/baggage handler who might all be the same person.

So instead of a fuel truck you have a battery swapper.

You'll have to ship the batteries somewhere they can charge/reprocess, but you also need to ship fuel, so it's a 1-to-1 tradeoff (you can ship the batteries by land).

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#173

Post by cpncrunch »

z303 wrote: post #7
wongarsu wrote: post #3

Small aircraft on short routes are quite a niche market right now, but electric aircraft have a very good value proposition there, reducing both fuel and maintenance costs drastically. Depending on how things work out, in 10 years we might see a lot more flights in 10-30 seat electric aircraft, e.g. as connecting flights to tiny airports.

Harbour Air in Vancouver are an example of that. Hopefully in service much earlier https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/harbour-air-to-resume...

Update here: https://skiesmag.com/news/harbour-air-magnix-join-forces-h55...

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#174

Post by hokkos »

saddlerustle wrote: post #39
itsrajju wrote: post #12

Wendover Productions (who else?!) recently released a video[1] on the future of electric planes. Quite a lot of information in there! [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH4b3sAs-l8

LNA, an aviation industry newsletter, recently came to a very different conclusion [1]. The biggest difference to Wendover Productions's numbers is a hugely higher estimate in the cost of replacing the battery every 5-10 years due to battery degradation. [1] https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/01/the-true-cost-of-electric-...

ridiculous quote of $/kWh of batteries, poor analysis of degradation which is way more complicated than they assume, also you should understand that soon carbon will have a price, airlines won't have a freeride forever

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#176

Post by Infernal »

ars wrote: post #171
throwawayboise wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Production of aluminum metal from aluminum oxide is hugely energy-intensive. Aluminum plants often have an on-site utility-size power plant to provide the electricity. Is this same energy needed to recycle the oxide from the batteries? If so it seems like a non-starter, maybe unless it could be done with solar generation.

> Is this same energy needed to recycle the oxide from the batteries? The energy delivered by the battery in flight, is what you need to use to restore it back to fresh. The more energy you need the better your battery. Why does it need to be specifically solar? Use electric from the grid, and as the entire grid changes over to other power sources so will this.

The real question here is the ratio of energy delivered over the life of a fresh anode as it is fully converted to aluminum oxide, to the amount of energy required to turn that same aluminum oxide back into a pure aluminum anode.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#177

Post by citrusybread »

deregulateMed wrote: post #114
itsrajju wrote: post #12

Wendover Productions (who else?!) recently released a video[1] on the future of electric planes. Quite a lot of information in there! [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH4b3sAs-l8

Anyone get a weird feeling about Wendover? I used to think he was a decent authority until I watched his channel Half As Interesting. Maybe he hires a writer, but his sarcastic joking nature comes off as extremely sincere and authoritative. This makes me question how solid his Wendover points are. He has a commanding voice and we believe him.

definitely. a lot of his other content is just kind of out there -- missing some critical details or glosses over other things.

doesn't help that it feels like clickbait, at least for HAI, and most of them can be summed up with a tweet.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#178

Post by NotSammyHagar »

tommi wrote: post #162
darkwizard42 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think high speed rail is compelling because of the speed and accessibility (which if built right -- looking at Japan) becomes an easy option for commute and transport between cities that is vastly more accessible than airports (Narita airport is FAR from Tokyo central) The security check in, long ticket lines, etc. are all byproducts of security theater that has come through and honestly in the US, with TSA Pre, I'…

Well said though to clarify the reason why you wait 40 minutes at the gate is probably because you have to calculate some extra per each step leading to it. You can't be sure you'll make it in 5 minutes per check in, security and walk to the gate. Also, the added cost in time and money of missing a plane is quite high compared to missing a train e.g. in Europe, so that further increases the buffer you add to the proc…

I've been reluctant to get precheck because I hate to give up my fingerprints. There have been a few infamous mistakes where they messed up like the Oregon lawyer thought to be involved with the Spanish train bombers. Being in software, I know many immigrants to the us and they all have precheck and the border check version - while me and many of my natural born citizens don't have it, at least partly for that reason of fingerprints. I solved that problem for now by not flying during covid ;-) Am I unnecessarily paranoid? Probably.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#179

Post by aerospace_guy »

jcims wrote: post #163
aerospace_guy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I see a lot of parts that can fail. What do you mean?

Tearing this down for inspection vs. a turboprop, for example, would be a dream.

I agree! Just that saying "almost nothing to inspect or maintain" is not true.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#180

Post by justaguy88 »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #178
tommi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said though to clarify the reason why you wait 40 minutes at the gate is probably because you have to calculate some extra per each step leading to it. You can't be sure you'll make it in 5 minutes per check in, security and walk to the gate. Also, the added cost in time and money of missing a plane is quite high compared to missing a train e.g. in Europe, so that further increases the buffer you add to the proc…

I've been reluctant to get precheck because I hate to give up my fingerprints. There have been a few infamous mistakes where they messed up like the Oregon lawyer thought to be involved with the Spanish train bombers. Being in software, I know many immigrants to the us and they all have precheck and the border check version - while me and many of my natural born citizens don't have it, at least partly for that reason…

Applying for a US work visa or residency involves writing down so much about yourself (inc. getting fingerprints), that pre-check afterwards feels like just re-providing a subset of the same paperwork
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