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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#171

Post by b9a2cab5 »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #161
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Asian who went to a state school and I don't think it's irrelevant. Regardless of Harvard's prestige giving a whole class of people lower "personal" ratings because of their race is racism, pure and simple. I even see startups like Canvas/Jumpstart [1] that explicitly allow recruiters to filter applicants by race. I don't know how this isn't illegal and I hope someone sues them. I took a look at your post his…

I work at Amazon, so being an elite is either years away or impossible on account of my IQ. It seems I’m stuck in the coach class... My gpa was only acceptable at my state school too - never heard of anyone getting into a good grad school with a 3.9something in CS out of my institution.

I wouldn't characterize Facebook as being all that different from Amazon. I'm sorry you view it that way. And Amazon is hardly "coach class". You make more money than my parents did combined as a SWE and with far less education. I suppose if you think being an elite means making millions it isn't happening at Amazon, but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating from Harvard isn't making you millions. It takes 10+ years to reach that level regardless of what school you went to.

If your GPA was only acceptable then why are you blaming elitism for what you characterize as failures? Is that not a direct result of your own failure to study and succeed? (I'll also add that everyone I know who got into a good grad school aggressively pursued research and had multiple publications in top conferences by the time they applied; the standards are high and I wouldn't consider a 3.9 without research sufficient).

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#172

Post by rejectedandsad »

fallingknife wrote: post #166
rejectedandsad wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree because you’re succeeding at the expense of the rest of us. Have you considered 99.5% of people will never step one foot on an elite school campus? I’m sick of society being catered to your whims while the rest of us are dismissed as stupid and innately less qualified. Objectively speaking, my life is absolutely terrible BECAUSE of elites like you hoarding opportunity and people like me getting nothing bec…

If you think your life is irretrievably broken because you don't get to be rich, your problem is not lack of money.

It’s not just that. It’s knowing that whatever I do I cannot have social mobility or the happiness the typical Googler* has because of the state of my life from 14-17 (and the state of my genes that determine intelligence, which is more relevant than school for Google in particular).

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#173

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

ugh123 wrote: post #89

Wasn't able to read past the first paragraph due to paywall, but the first 2 sentences stuck out: > Power in the U.S. flows through the gates of the Ivy League and a very small tier of other top universities. These institutions set and sanction the boundaries of knowledge, including what kinds of political and social views are welcomed in prestige cultural spaces. Is that really the case anymore? If the last year has…

"Influencers" .... who runs the actual governments? Whether your answer is "an unelected wealthy oligarchy" or "officials appointed by the administration", both ranks are filled with people who came up through the elite university systems.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#174

Post by rejectedandsad »

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #171
rejectedandsad wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Amazon, so being an elite is either years away or impossible on account of my IQ. It seems I’m stuck in the coach class... My gpa was only acceptable at my state school too - never heard of anyone getting into a good grad school with a 3.9something in CS out of my institution.

I wouldn't characterize Facebook as being all that different from Amazon. I'm sorry you view it that way. And Amazon is hardly "coach class". You make more money than my parents did combined as a SWE and with far less education. I suppose if you think being an elite means making millions it isn't happening at Amazon, but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating fro…

> but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating from Harvard isn't making you millions

I mean it is happening at Google - look up how much Liz Fong Jones made as an ex-Caltech, ex-MIT engineer. Definitely happens to the MIT to Jane Street crowd and also happens to the people that can get offers at the IPOing startups I can’t even get interviews at. Not like I have the intellect to pass those interviews even if I got them though (I blame my parents for that).

> If your GPA was only acceptable then why are you blaming elitism for what you characterize as failures?

I definitely blame myself too, it’s why I have the dark thoughts whenever I cross a bridge. I should have done research in high school and I should have gotten at least two first author papers to a top conference in undergrad - instead I got 2 2nd author papers to medium tier conferences because I could never come up with any compelling research ideas. All of my work is ultimately meaningless because it just wasn’t enough - it’s extremely depressing.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#175

Post by longtimegoogler »

I've long thought the same. I've often thought that the University system in Europe, in particular Germany, is a much better model for higher education.

From what I gather, admissions is entirely merit based there and money isn't an issue.

It isn't just the Ivies that cater to the rich and elite. Many other private universities also do so and promise alumni connections and wealth, think Vanderbilt, Williams, etc.

Even when I was applying to colleges as an undergrad I found it a bit off-putting and instead only applied to public universities.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#176

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

BurningFrog wrote: post #156
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If success in college is indicative of intelligence, then the low correlation between SAT scores and college success would argue against your claim.

It's easy to find seemingly well informed smart people who claim that, and also those who claim the opposite. Outside physics, there is always a study that supports whatever you want to believe, so we can all keep believing whatever feels good, while being supported by Science! I like to think I'm different. But odds are I'm not...

The reason why the SAT is "going away" as you noted, or at least the cited reason, is precisely what I noted.

If you want to take the position that there is no truth (or even just a better approximation thereof), that "we can all just believe what we want to believe", then there's no way to ever progress on such matters.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#177

Post by rkk3 »

krastanov wrote: post #162
zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds.

"69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation.

> donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever

Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are uncommon and more reserved for the Ultra High Net worth, but they are a thing, Jared Kushner was the literal poster-child for it.

The most prevalent and whitewashed pay to play path is getting your child do an expensive specialty sport (Lacrosse, Fencing, Crew, Equestrian) & hiring college advisors & SAT prep.

1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yale....

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#178

Post by b9a2cab5 »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #174
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize Facebook as being all that different from Amazon. I'm sorry you view it that way. And Amazon is hardly "coach class". You make more money than my parents did combined as a SWE and with far less education. I suppose if you think being an elite means making millions it isn't happening at Amazon, but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating fro…

> but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating from Harvard isn't making you millions I mean it is happening at Google - look up how much Liz Fong Jones made as an ex-Caltech, ex-MIT engineer. Definitely happens to the MIT to Jane Street crowd and also happens to the people that can get offers at the IPOing startups I can’t even get interviews at. Not like I have t…

The company I work for now pays substantially more than Google/Facebook/et. al and most people on my team are from random state schools, many with no experience at FAANG. You can certainly make millions from a pre-IPO startup (and I have 2nd degree knowledge of many people that did get rich off IPOs), but you're not making that at the Google of today.

I'm sorry you feel that way about your past. You should consider seeing a counselor. I've found that a growth mindset is important to ensuring you keep succeeding because there's nobody you can just copy once you've made it this far. Failures shouldn't be depressing but motivating instead. All this "I should have" thought should be "Now I know I should" instead. In your case, "I should have aimed higher" -> "I will aim higher now that I know". I can definitely empathize with you - I played video games all day in high school and only got into CS because of playing video games 5 hours a day and wanting to work with them. I screwed around freshman and sophomore year and destroyed my GPA. I came back and grinded and brought it back up the rest of my years.

Good luck. I'm sure you're more brilliant than you think if you made it to Amazon. If you ever need motivation go read the Reddit threads on people saying how hard it is to make it to Amazon.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#179

Post by nradov »

fighterpilot wrote: post #167
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah but they do. See this person that was Indian (but raised in Nigeria!) but pretended to be black to get into med school [1]. "I was always in a state of terror that I would be found out. During one interview at Case Western Reserve University, I was confronted by a black doctor and admissions committee member. He barraged me with questions about my family and personal background. I said that my family came from Nig…

I should have added the caveat that the person needs a sufficient proportion of actual ancestry so as to make it not an outright lie.

How does one determine a sufficient proportion of actual ancestry? What is the specific dividing line between truth and outright lie?

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#180

Post by Wowfunhappy »

rkk3 wrote: post #177
krastanov wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are…

> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation.

This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.

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