Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office • Hacker News Board

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#171

Post by antonvs » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

rgblambda wrote: post #98

>As another worker put it, “I can tell you, most people really don’t give 2 flips about ‘company culture’ and think it’s BS.” Is there anyone who doesn't think "company culture" is bullshit?

> Is there anyone who doesn't think "company culture" is bullshit?

There shouldn't be, but if life has taught me anything, it's that there's always an audience for whatever bullshit someone is selling.

Politics in the US over the past few years provides proof of this that's so far past reasonable doubt it's not funny.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#172

Post by antonvs » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 4:32 AM UTC

zucked wrote: post #112

dcolkitt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of those people are only struggling in the first place because the broken office-first model required them to relocate to a metro where they have no family or social network. This is particularly bad in the tech industry, because the major tech metros are notoriously unsocial. People on the West Coast tend to have fewer friends and be less outgoing[1], so it's particularly hard to meet people when you relocate…

I won't argue with this being a difficult issue, but I also want to push back a little bit on this notion that forcing people into a situation is a totally net bad thing. As an adult, you have precious few opportunities to make lasting, deep friendships. I consider myself an outgoing person with lots of shallow friendships, but my best, deepest friends are still the ones from High School, College, and the surrounding…

> I also want to push back a little bit on this notion that forcing people into a situation is a totally net bad thing.

Hey brother! I think slavery was a good idea too. The South will rise again!

Seriously, that looks like some major Stockholm syndrome you have going there.

Let's say you didn't have to go into the office every day. That gives you more time to socialize in your community. You can volunteer, take classes, go to a bar or club, whatever.

If you want some sort of "hair shirt" experience, you can choose that. I once volunteered at a long term care facility to teach the residents about computers, computer programming, etc. It was fascinating because in doing that, you find people with those inclinations who may not have had the opportunity during their working lives to learn about such things.

If you need to "be forced" to do things, I guess you do you. But that's something you really shouldn't be projecting onto other people.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#173

Post by antonvs » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 4:35 AM UTC

irq11 wrote: post #5

kevingadd wrote: post #3

"One worker’s company “had everyone come into the office for an outdoor luncheon a week ago,” according to a post" Some of the stuff companies do truly baffles me. It's only the beginning of June, you can't really assume your whole team is fully vaccinated. Why would you bring everyone in for lunch and then send them home? All downside and near-zero upside. It'd be another matter if it was a full day event where you…

Vaccines have been readily available to anyone who wants them (in the US) since mid April, even in the highest demand parts of the country. If you are not vaccinated, at this point, there is no excuse. (edit: obviously, I’m assuming the article is talking about a company in the US, since the article is about the US .)

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Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#174

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #146

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also don't possess terribly in-demand skills. Such workers shouldn't be calling BS on their leaders on return to offices, they should keep their heads down and do as they told. Regarding your points about needing money, the audience here is blessed to be in such high demand, that they can freely choose projects and leadership they like. We have just one life, why earn money doing something that you don't love?

> Such workers shouldn't be calling BS on their leaders on return to offices, they should keep their heads down and do as they told. So people shouldn't have any say just because they have lesser in-demand skills? Note that I didn't say these people were useless, they fulfill some role, just one that could easily be done by many others. They might be extremely loyal, productive people who just want to continue workin…

> So people shouldn't have any say just because they have lesser in-demand skills?

Actually, yes, that's how it works. If you are valuable and hard to replace, management has to account your desires and listen to your feedback, allowing work from home, 3 month vacations, and even for you 'calling out their BS', if you are very valuable. Because your skills are the leverage you have over management.

If you can be replaced easily without much cost, then you don't have leverage, and you are in no position to oppose your bosses. More so, if you are economically dependent on this job and you know that you wouldn't be able to find a new job easily, the situation is even worse because your bosses have very big leverage over you. If management says, 'working from the office', such workers can only say 'sir yes sir!', and do as they are told.

That's how it works in real life, and it is natural, so wow dude yourself.

However, every non-mentally impaired person is gifted with a capability to learn and acquire new skills, greatly increasing own worth at a workplace and improving job prospects.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#175

Post by irq11 » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

antonvs wrote: post #173

irq11 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines have been readily available to anyone who wants them (in the US) since mid April, even in the highest demand parts of the country. If you are not vaccinated, at this point, there is no excuse. (edit: obviously, I’m assuming the article is talking about a company in the US, since the article is about the US .)

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Please, stop with the social justice posturing. You can literally walk into just about any major pharmacy in the US and get a shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/news/coron...

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#176

Post by qchris » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

rufus_foreman wrote: post #158

qchris wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, I'd argue that working from home probably requires additional pay over working in the office. I'm sure some people have a "spare" bedroom that they can convert into an office, but there's a lot of people, including almost all the tech-oriented professionals under 30 that I know, that don't even have their own one bedroom apartment, let alone are able to pay for a second bedroom just in case. Working at the k…

>> If workers are also now expected to provision their own work space (space, desk, chairs, monitors, etc.), then the compensation model around those jobs also needs to be adjusted to account for that I've been working from home for 5 years. Standing desk, Aeron chair, dual ultra wide monitors, it goes on and on. It all adds up to about 1% of my compensation over those years. I spend whatever it takes to have a great…

I'm sorry, I think we definitely have a "pot meet kettle" situation here. You're (pretty patronizingly) describing noting selection bias, then basing things on your own situation.

The median income for mechanical engineers in the US is around $88k, with many (especially early-career) people making meaningfully less than that. I'm glad your income is high enough that thousands of dollars in equipment, and far more importantly, extra space in your living quarters, is a blip. I really am. But statistically, your situation is not representational of the hundreds of thousands of other workers.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#177

Post by GavinMcG » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

wrs wrote: post #166

GavinMcG wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your company has more than one office, they each have their own culture, which hews more or less closely to the cultural commonalities between offices. Shared values, communication norms, peer reactions, shared history, and inside jokes can exist when people aren't in the same room, but that culture tends to be a lot thinner. It would be more fruitful to discuss whether that's a good or bad thing—the bare existenc…

Sure, there is office culture, but I think “company culture” has to be what’s in common between the offices, by definition, no?

I don't think the managers the article describes are making the distinction you're making. They're concerned about the loss/thinness of culture, not only company-wide but also at the individual office level. It's also reasonable to think that thin office cultures provide a poor foundation for a thick company culture.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#178

Post by antonvs » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 3:03 AM UTC

irq11 wrote: post #175

antonvs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Please, stop with the social justice posturing. You can literally walk into just about any major pharmacy in the US and get a shot. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/news/coron...

At least 10% of Americans don't live within 5 miles of any pharmacy, and nearly 10% don't have access to a vehicle, a number which is higher among no non-white populations.

Depending on what area they're in and local policies, undocumented immigrants may have difficulty getting the vaccine.

Those are just a few examples of situations that, due to your unexamined privilege, you're apparently incapable of imagining.

We've only just reached the 50% mark for vaccinated people. Certainly some percent of those don't want the vaccine, but included in the remainder are people who have difficulty getting time off work, difficulty with transportation, etc.

Similar issues apply for voting. If these factors weren't important, Republicans wouldn't spend so much effort trying to disenfranchise voters by exploiting these factors to make it more difficult for people to vote.

The idea that pointing these issues out is "posturing" is either a sad commentary on your obliviousness, or indicates that you're perfectly aware of the status quo and want it to stay that way. Neither is a good reflection on you.