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Golden Handcuffs

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Re: Golden Handcuffs

#171

Post by amzn_throw »

voidfunc wrote: post #78
kemitche wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Amazon return to back-weighted comp? The offer I received two years ago had comp that shifted from "cash focused" to RSUs over 4 years, and had equivalent cash value over the 4 years. Obviously, by year 3/4 when comp was mostly/all RSUs, the stock could have gone up or down significantly. Given that the year 1 cash could be used to buy stock if I really wanted, it didn't seem an unreasonable approach to comp to m…

I definitely know some people on the 10/10/40/40 Amazon comp plan... also seems to be a common tactic to PIP people just before year 3 vests. Fuck Amazon. I'll never work for them.

Who gives a f about the comp plan? I'm on 5/15/40/40. The first two years are cash with bonus and then the stock vests in lieu of the bonus. I am making $275k and the stock has gone up 40% since I joined. And yet, if I stay through vest, it's like a $25k raise (9%). Why would they be incentivized to PIP me?

Plenty of people work here and get filthy rich. They stay because they create immense value at scale.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I doubt you'd pass our interview.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#172

Post by Rebelgecko »

the_only_law wrote: post #88
joshuamorton wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Say you live in or near Atlanta, the rate paid to (on site) employees in Atlanta is less than the rate paid to (on site) employees in SF (I think this is true for pretty much every FAANG). Why should a remote employee in Atlanta make more than an onsite one?

Will I at least make the same insane TC CoL adjusted? Or am I more likely to be paid what an average developer in Atlanta can take home or just a bit more?

At least where I work, I come out drastically ahead by not working in the Bay Area. Even though my compensation is maybe 10% lower, it's really more like a 5-6% pay cut when I take my marginal tax rate into consideration. I'd be spending waaaayyy more than an extra 5% of my income if I wanted a similar lifestyle up in Silicon Valley (owning my home relatively close to work)

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#173

Post by sologoub »

whoisjuan wrote: post #155
gkoberger wrote: post #41

This sounds employee-friendly, but it's total BS. You'll just be getting less equity at a higher strike price every year, so it's just a sneaky way for these companies to give employees less. They can still say "we're giving you $100k in stock this year", but it's a lot less stock since you're not locked into a strike price. If you want to leave after 1 year (post-cliff), you can leave under either scheme and get 1 y…

Do you realize that Coinbase is now a public company? There’s no such a thing as strike price because their stock compensation is likely done through RSUs. Not stock options. Public companies issue an RSU grant at the beginning of employment and at no cost for the employee. Also if the share price goes below the grant date price, you’re likely recalibrated through rolling refreshers.

Terminology aside, the general principle is still the same issue and employees ARE better of with 4 year grants in high growth companies.

Let’s say you target RSU comp is $100k per year. Stock is $100 in year 1, $125 in year 2, $150 in year 3 and $200 in year 4. Ignoring inflation and taxes to make this easier to illustrate.

1) initial 4 year grant - $100k x 4 = $400k at $100/share is 4k shares. Assuming you keep all of your RSUs, you have $800k worth at year 4.

2) $100k of shares paid each year: year 1 - 1000 shares, year 2 - 800 shares, year 3 - 666.67 shares, year 4 - 500 shares. 4 year total comp in year 4 shares values is $593,334

So the employee receives $206.7k less under the new scheme versus the 4 year one. In reality, it’s even worse because we are talking high growth business here.

Layering in annual refreshers helps as well, but this is where things generally plateau a bit.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#174

Post by titanomachy »

joshuamorton wrote: post #103
logicslave wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but they arent though. 350-400k is actually somewhat low for senior. They have been paying this for a long time. Its great money remote. I really dont understand the issue

> Yeah but they arent though. 350-400k is actually somewhat low for senior. I wouldn't say this. It's solidly middle of the road for a Google or FB senior, and high/unreachable for an Amazon or Microsoft Senior. Its probably(?) on the lower side for Netflix. This is all before stock growth. Someone who has been a Senior for 5 years at Google or Facebook will be vesting shares that doubled in value, so the take home p…

That's true, but stock growth influences new-hire offers as well. Google's valuation doubled in the last year, so someone who joined Google 1-2 years ago (and had the equity piece of their compensation double) will require a stronger offer to entice them away from Google.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#175

Post by heavyset_go »

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #2

Coinbase is an interesting company. They're grossly underrated and laughed off as an online casino, but they invest all that money they make very wisely and strategically to grow the business. I find another paragraph from that press release interesting: > Traditionally people expect they need to negotiate for the best package after being hired in a new job. Those that do this well tend to be rewarded, and those that…

> All employees in the same position, in the same location, receive the same salary and equity offer. No exceptions.

How do they define location? In one city, there are neighborhoods where the median income is six figures while it's a fifth of that in another. Same can be said of two different locations in a state or county, or two different states.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#176

Post by aardvarkr »

amzn_throw wrote: post #171
voidfunc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely know some people on the 10/10/40/40 Amazon comp plan... also seems to be a common tactic to PIP people just before year 3 vests. Fuck Amazon. I'll never work for them.

Who gives a f about the comp plan? I'm on 5/15/40/40. The first two years are cash with bonus and then the stock vests in lieu of the bonus. I am making $275k and the stock has gone up 40% since I joined. And yet, if I stay through vest, it's like a $25k raise (9%). Why would they be incentivized to PIP me? Plenty of people work here and get filthy rich. They stay because they create immense value at scale. Sounds li…

Sounds like you’re pleasant to work with and are a great ambassador of Amazon’s culture

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#177

Post by rhizome »

jm20 wrote: post #141
choppaface wrote: post #4

The C-level to IC comp ratio is still way too astronomical. If a VC is telling you he feels there’s a better way to comp, he has a financial interest in ensuring your loss. Do not support investor-focused comp models like backweighted vesting (Amazon) or outright fraud like a start-up giving you a stock offer with no percentage or no 409A. Employees deserve high-quality equity on par with investors. The OP’s suggesti…

Including percentages for startup stock grants is tricky. You have things like common/preferred stock, liquidation preferences, subsequent rounds causing dilution, etc. that the average employee doesn't usually understand. At best it's very confusing and at worst you have actual legal liability issues. And I would never want my employees to value their stock based on our 409a price, we (like all startups) do all we c…

How do you want your employees to value their stock, then?

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#178

Post by titanomachy »

nineplay wrote: post #40
logicslave wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can just go on levels.fyi and see the comp for yourself. Recently FB has been giving ~350k for a senior developer working remote. Thats great money for someone in the mid west. Studying a few months for a job that could set you up financially for a long time is a great deal.

Call me cynical, but they are supposed to be trying to recruit me. I say "That doesn't sound like more than I currently make, what about other forms of compensation?" If they say "well we're not sure...", I'm going to be pretty reluctant to jump in. For all I know they are "re-leveling" and those 400k paydays are going away.

I recently went through a job search, and no recruiter was willing to pitch big numbers to me up front. I used levels.fyi and word of mouth to figure out who would be most likely to negotiate.

The market seems superheated compared to last time I did this (~3 years ago). Lots of capital flying around, and a lot of it ends up in tech. Hard not to feel like we're in some kind of bubble.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#179

Post by standardUser »

HWR_14 wrote: post #102
choppaface wrote: post #4

The C-level to IC comp ratio is still way too astronomical. If a VC is telling you he feels there’s a better way to comp, he has a financial interest in ensuring your loss. Do not support investor-focused comp models like backweighted vesting (Amazon) or outright fraud like a start-up giving you a stock offer with no percentage or no 409A. Employees deserve high-quality equity on par with investors. The OP’s suggesti…

Dumb question time: What's "IC". As you can imagine, the term is kind of overloaded in internet searches. Also, does anyone know of a good primer on equity founders/early employees/later employees should expect/require so they don't get totally taken advantage of? It turns out experience is an expensive teacher.

It's never dumb to call out the confusing usage of acronyms, especially not here where the problem is endemic.

Re: Golden Handcuffs

#180

Post by pcbro141 »

amzn_throw wrote: post #171
voidfunc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely know some people on the 10/10/40/40 Amazon comp plan... also seems to be a common tactic to PIP people just before year 3 vests. Fuck Amazon. I'll never work for them.

Who gives a f about the comp plan? I'm on 5/15/40/40. The first two years are cash with bonus and then the stock vests in lieu of the bonus. I am making $275k and the stock has gone up 40% since I joined. And yet, if I stay through vest, it's like a $25k raise (9%). Why would they be incentivized to PIP me? Plenty of people work here and get filthy rich. They stay because they create immense value at scale. Sounds li…

Don't Amazon's interviews have a reputation for being relatively easy compared to other big companies? At least as of ~2 years ago that was the sentiment.
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