Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships • Hacker News Board

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#171

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 1:32 AM UTC

nhaehnle wrote: post #148

yummyfajitas wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People made unemployed by the minimum wage require more benefits than they would if they could be gainfully employed at (e.g.) 50% of minimum wage.

There is no empirical evidence that introducing a minimum wage causes job losses on a scale where the increase of unemployment benefits would outweigh the benefits of its introduction. The whole idea that the minimum wage causes unemployment is a myth that is based on incorrect labour market models.

There is little good empirical evidence about the minimum wage, period. I'd have a hard time showing any harm, and you'll have a hard time showing any benefit.

That's because the minimum wage is usually set at such a low level that it applies to very few workers (http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2007.htm

I'll give you one natural experiment, however. A min wage hike in American Samoa caused unemployment to increase by at least 6% (= 2041 workers fired by Chicken of the Sea / (65k American Samoans x 52% labor force participation rate)).

http://washingtonexaminer.com/node/127791

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#172

Post by jasonlotito » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 1:40 AM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #157

jasonlotito wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I should have been explicit (though, I feel I was fairly obvious). unpaid interships aren't producing anything. If you are getting paid, then it's not really relevant to the discussion of "unpaid internships."

Whatever point you thought you were making, you weren't. And even if you were, it certainly wasn't obvious.

No. I was correct. Interns producing something of value to the company have to be paid, otherwise it's illegal. If you are getting paid, then the discussion doesn't involve you.

Sorry if you don't understand. Your ignorance doesn't make me wrong.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#173

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 1:56 AM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #120

yummyfajitas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without savings, how do you pay for retraining? One common method is to work for free for a short time, until you gain the skills necessary to perform a new job. Without a minimum wage, how does a person on the very bottom of the social scale accumulate savings? By reducing consumption. Where I live, the GDP per capita is about 40x lower than the US. The top 5% tends to have a standard of living comparable to the bot…

One common method is to work for free for a short time, until you gain the skills necessary to perform a new job. Luckily food, shelter & transport is free too. Where I live, the GDP per capita is about 40x lower than the US. Where exactly do you live & what is the quality of life for those at the bottom?

I live in India. The quality of life at the bottom here in India is terrible, but that's irrelevant. I'm comparing the US poor to India's top 10% (lets not even discuss India's middle class).

The average poor household in the US has 2 rooms per person, a car or two, air conditioning, and all sorts of consumer goods.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf

I recently visited a family in Bandra (one of the poshest suburbs of Mumbai). They had 0.75 rooms/person, no AC, an inconsistent and undrinkable water supply, no car and a single bathroom about half the size of any in the US (i.e., no separated shower stall). My understanding is that this is fairly typical for their strata.

They are in the top 5% (roughly) of India. If Indians can save 20% of their income, so can Americans.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#174

Post by bugsy » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:11 AM UTC

In the US there's two very different sorts of internships.

The first is what you describe, scamming desperate people during a economic depression out of free skilled labor that has monetary value to the company.

The second is internships at places like magazines, newspapers and politicians offices. These ones are more interesting. Poor people and minorities can't afford to work for a year for free. But the children of the rich can. The internship provides cover to avoid having to hire minorities since hiring takes place from the internship pool.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#175

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:15 AM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #174

In the US there's two very different sorts of internships. The first is what you describe, scamming desperate people during a economic depression out of free skilled labor that has monetary value to the company. The second is internships at places like magazines, newspapers and politicians offices. These ones are more interesting. Poor people and minorities can't afford to work for a year for free. But the children o…

Poor people and minorities can't afford to work for a year for free

Poor people and minorities? So minorities, even if they happen to be individually rich, can't afford to work for a year for free?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#176

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:20 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #39

zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom. The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude. In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege. Moreover - a point not…

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

"There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits"

...

"The minimum wage is a horrible stain on a free society."

Maybe not taking your own advice here?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#177

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:23 AM UTC

donall wrote: post #51

cturner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. I know this is veering off-topic, but I think it's worth pointing out that not every instance of the word "fascist" is disrespectful and to deny people the right to use it is just as destructive as when it is misu…

My rule of thumb on whether it's appropriate to call someone fascist: would they label themselves as such? "Fascism" is a notoriously hard to define term -- there was never a "fascist manifesto" the way there was for communism.

Life is too short to argue with someone about what their political beliefs should be called. The British National Party is a bunch of wrong-headed jerks regardless of whether they're "fascist" or not, and every moment you spend arguing with them over whether they're really "fascist" is a moment you really should be arguing with 'em about why their policies are stupid.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#178

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:01 AM UTC

ryanklee wrote: post #127

Klinky wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. Keep in mind how many products are imported from third world countries that have poor labor standards & low wages. The current US lifestyle is heavily subsidized by this cheap labor. Additionally here in the US there is often abuse with illegal immigrants who make well below minim…

4.9% of US pop. working at or below minimum wage is hardly insignificant. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm

You are misreading. It's 0.8% of the US population and 4.9% of hourly (i.e., nonsalaried) workers.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#179

Post by lotharbot » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:05 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #156

yummyfajitas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without savings, how do you pay for retraining? One common method is to work for free for a short time, until you gain the skills necessary to perform a new job. Without a minimum wage, how does a person on the very bottom of the social scale accumulate savings? By reducing consumption. Where I live, the GDP per capita is about 40x lower than the US. The top 5% tends to have a standard of living comparable to the bot…

> By reducing consumption. If you're making minimum wage, there's not much consumption to be lowered. Rent, transport, and food will eat it all up (and then some).

> If you're making minimum wage, there's not much consumption to be lowered. Rent, transport, and food will eat it all up (and then some).

Rent, transportation, and food are consumption. If they're eating up everything and then some, find a way to lower them. Move in with your parents if you have to, or share a place with friends. Learn to love rice, beans, and potatoes. Walk or take the bus. There are lots of options.

(This isn't abstract theory; I'm presently living on not much more than minimum wage, and I have a wife and kid.)

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#180

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:12 AM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #179

ceejayoz wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By reducing consumption. If you're making minimum wage, there's not much consumption to be lowered. Rent, transport, and food will eat it all up (and then some).

> If you're making minimum wage, there's not much consumption to be lowered. Rent, transport, and food will eat it all up (and then some). Rent, transportation, and food are consumption. If they're eating up everything and then some, find a way to lower them. Move in with your parents if you have to, or share a place with friends. Learn to love rice, beans, and potatoes. Walk or take the bus. There are lots of option…

If you're making minimum wage, chances are you're already riding the bus, eating rice, beans, and potatoes. Chances are also pretty good that your parents and friends are in a similar financial situation.

How many minimum wage earners have a MS degree like you?