Live data from Hacker News

Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

171–180 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#171
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of just saying systemic racism exists, why not point out examples? Then people can judge for themselves what effect it may have on them instead of feeling like there's this oppressive "other" which is the cause of anything they don't like about their life and there's no point struggling against it because it'll just crush them anyway.

"systemic racism" is intentionally deceptive language. I think you'd be hard-pressed to constructive uses of this jargon where people are actually trying to solve specific, well-defined problems.

Systemic racism isn't intentionally deceptive. It's self explanatory, but just like anything the more you investigate the more layered and multifaceted it becomes.

For me it's 3 main things.

1. The way historical oppression can set a group behind another group even after any specific policy has been repealed.

Poverty is often a cycle that can go on indefinitely for generations especially depending on things like upward mobility which has coincidentally been getting weaker since the period of official apartheid ended in the USA. Strange that we seem to be uninterested in spending much on the uplifting of our people now that such spending would need to include all people.

2. The way that bias against a group can result in that group being disadvantaged despite there being no rules or laws in place that require that and even in spite of it being contrary to policies.

Like the way that black people are half as likely to receive a callback for a job interview as an identically qualified white applicant or that despite being less likely to be found with contraband black people are twice as likely to be searched by police.

3. Would be laws and rules that do not target racial groups, but unfairly benefit or disadvantage racial groups.

This would be local property tax based school funding resulting in poor neighborhoods getting inadequate funding for schools resulting in predominantly black schools being underfunded. This is also drastically harsher penalties for crack compared to cocaine.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#172
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how at no point it's occurred to you that maybe people are just being polite or considerate towards the beliefs of others...or that a business might not want to stipulate a specific theological belief it's employees must put forward. That just can't be it for some reason, it's got to be a conspiracy against christianity! Talk about victimhood...

When a society built for Christians (or for “Christian ideals” which this country was founded upon) starts to acknowledge and accept others, the folks against these changes think everyone else is being too sensitive. When a society built with slaves and r*ping and pillaging indigenous populations starts to acknowledge that there’s issues that stemmed from that, the folks against these changes and dialogue think every…

You do know that most of the founding fathers were far from religious people (especially Christian religious), and the whole church and state separation thing was there from the beginning because about the only religious thing anyone could agree on was generally A god (and depending on the founding father that was controversial) - not the specific flavor/interpretation of the god?

Unlike some European states, the United States has never been particularly Christian in any solidly identifiable way - more a hand wavey ‘as long as we don’t talk about which sect or really think about it too much’ way.

Quakers? check. Protestants? Check check. Catholics? Check check. Unitarians? Check evangelicals? Check. Gnostics? Check. Sunnis? Check. Jews? Check. Baptists? Check. Mormons? Check. And a whole lot more.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#173
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. It is a factual statement, I agree, but in the US it is not true. Peoples' lives are the sum of their choices, large and small. One can choose to learn how to make better choices. I spent a significant portion of every day learning to make better choices and doing things that will improve my life. Such as exercisi…

The single biggest and most accurate predictor of financial success, or lack thereof, is which zip code people are born in. Libertarian sentiments like yours refuse to acknowledge in any meaningful sense environmental effects upon a population’s well-being, instead almost exclusively focusing on individual choice. Which is absurd, and why it is not respected despite decades of evangelical proselytizing.

[deleted]

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Systemic racism no longer exists or at least I’m completely unaware of it. I find proponents of this theory like people who believe in big foot. Somehow he’s out there but they have zero evidence for it

There is a mountain of academic study on the subject. I don't blame you for being unfamiliar with it, but without doing the research I don't know what you think you would have stumbled across by accident that would have proven things to you. Especially if you're already primed to think it's not real.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing but I have girls. I don't want them growing up with the locus of control outside of themselves. The studies are convincing that that is the worst thing you can for a child.

I'm a woman and in some sense I had sort of a sheltered childhood. I was one of the top students in my graduating high school class and I had a lot of firsthand experience with being taken seriously, having my opinions respected and feeling just as entitled as anyone else to speak my mind, etc. And then I became an adult and life did not go how I thought it would and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what we…

I value your perspective. Thank you.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80% of businesses fail in 5 years. There are many reasons, but the usual ones revolve around things like not understanding accounting, not putting in the effort, etc. It's also true that many very successful people failed at business time after time before figuring it out. Fortunately, American culture doesn't look askance at people that fail at business and try again.

What percent of businesses fail because the owners don't understand accounting? What percent fail because they don't put in the effort? Where did you find this data?

Google "why businesses fail" and there's a lot of information.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#177
post #9
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, and from my anecdotal experience, this seems to be true across political and ideological divides.

True, but it's been weaponized extremely well by one side in recent years (2012~14 and onwards). Reminds me a lot of how it was weaponized by the other side in the late 80s and 90s.

[deleted]

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Systemic racism no longer exists or at least I’m completely unaware of it. I find proponents of this theory like people who believe in big foot. Somehow he’s out there but they have zero evidence for it

Other people have linked direct stats in this thread, and I encourage looking around at them. But also, just think about your theory in the abstract for a second.

Less than one full generation has passed since redlining was made illegal. It's been less than 60 years since segregation was ruled illegal across the board.

Do you really believe that the entirety of society has been reshaped in that amount of time and every negative system has been eliminated? In what is essentially less than the lifespan of a single generation?

People treat the civil rights movement like it's this very old event that we've all moved past. I don't necessarily blame people for having that perspective, because that's the way we're taught about it in schools. But the civil rights movement was very recent.

You think we overhauled the entire housing market in 60 years? We have not yet had even a single president that was born after the civil rights movement. So from my perspective, even ignoring the stats and research on this subject, I keep hearing people tell me that when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the voting rights act of 1965 passed, all the racists just, I don't know, died or something. That they can't possibly exist anymore, and they can't possibly have taught anything negative to their immediate kids who went on to be CEOs and politicians.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#179
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I’ve had it so good in this world, you know. The odds were fifty-to-one against me being born in the United States in 1930. I won the lottery the day I emerged from the womb by being in the United States instead of in some other country where my chances would have been way different. Imagine there are two identical twins in the womb, both equally bright and energetic. And the genie says to them, “One of you is going…

This point is moot. Saying that people randomly emerge in all countries implies the stage of pre-birth during which a person hasn't been born yet, but a roulette is about to decide its destination, gender and other traits. This is basically the soul theory and if it's true, the new "assignment" for that soul would be decided based on its earned qualities. Buddhism, in other words. If we reject this idea and state tha…

> This is basically the soul theory

No, it's really not. It's a thought experiment using a clearly fictitious mechanism to get the reader to consider what their experience might be like in completely different circumstances.

For the same reason It's A Wonderful Life and scifi about alternate universes don't have moot points.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#180
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. It is a factual statement, I agree, but in the US it is not true. Peoples' lives are the sum of their choices, large and small. One can choose to learn how to make better choices. I spent a significant portion of every day learning to make better choices and doing things that will improve my life. Such as exercisi…

The single biggest and most accurate predictor of financial success, or lack thereof, is which zip code people are born in. Libertarian sentiments like yours refuse to acknowledge in any meaningful sense environmental effects upon a population’s well-being, instead almost exclusively focusing on individual choice. Which is absurd, and why it is not respected despite decades of evangelical proselytizing.

Do you have any cites for that data? What is success defined as? I've heard that causation thrown around lately but have never seen the actual study.

I can see it at the extremes, meaning Martha's Vineyard and Compton perhaps as examples of positive and negative predictors. I haven't visited either, so I wouldn't know first hand. The vast, vast majority of zip codes aren't the extreme by definition. In my zip code, there are both wealthy people in million dollar properties as well as HUD housing and the majority somewhere in between.

Post reply on HN