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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

annehelen.substack.com

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#171

Post by colpabar »

gruez wrote: post #150
jolux wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day Well thankfully we don't have to imagine, people have researched this: https://livingwage.mit.edu/ . According to these data, the living wage across the US in 2019 was $16.54: https://livingwage.mit.edu/articles/61-new-living-wage-data-... . So it's not at all inconceivable that the federal minimum is a poverty wage, in fact it almost certainly is.

But that has nothing to do with GP's claim? GP was talking about your "net pay is below zero", meaning that the job itself pays negative. eg. you get paid $50/day but spent $55/day to earn it. Your comment seems to be about the minimum wage not being able to sustain a given living standard, eg. you get paid $50/day but you need to spend $55/day to survive.

First off, it's not $50 per day, because you're probably paying income tax. But let's assume it is.

Second, it's not really "per day", that's an average. Most bills recur monthly. Assuming a month of four weeks, and working 5 days per week, that's 20 * $50 = $1000 per month. Doesn't that seem like an extremely low number to pay for rent, transportation, food, health care, kids, utilities, etc? I pay more for that in rent every month.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#172

Post by rednerrus »

throwaway1777 wrote: post #97
leetcrew wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's pretty common for the second shift to start right around the time highschool gets out. or if it doesn't, the manager might be flexible. dinner rush doesn't usually start until 6:00 or so. there's also the weekend. obviously highschoolers are not filling 100% of entry-level food service jobs, but they make up a pretty good chunk of these workers along with some college kids. it's a good option for someone who has…

Except it’s not really a good option. Maybe a high schooler should be focusing on school.

For a lot of kids, if they don't have a job in high school, they don't have any of the things they want. When I was 14 I had a job so I could buy the things my parents couldn't afford which was almost everything. I wanted new shoes and new clothes so everyone wouldn't know how broke we were. I wanted a car when I turned 16 and I knew the only way that was going to happen was if I worked for it. I didn't like not having money in my pocket when all of my friends did.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#173

Post by jfengel »

gruez wrote: post #113
mywittyname wrote: post #20

I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. There are a lot of jobs where your net pay is below zero, long term, when you factor in the external costs associated with working, such as needing transportation. These jobs have been propped up by debt. It looks like the pandemic has put and end to this. Transportation costs have skyrocketed to such a degree that it's basically impossible for a poor person…

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

Is it really that hard to imagine?

For starters, you don't want to have to work every single day. If you work 5 days out of every 7, you only have $41.43 to spend per day.

The average cost of a studio apartment is over $900 a month. That's $30 per day. Even if you get roommates, that's going to cost you at least $15 per day.

That leaves you $26 a day to spend on food, clothing, hygiene, Internet access, electricity, transportation, health care (since most minimum wage jobs don't include it), and all of the other expenses of life. And then pray you don't get sick -- even with health insurance you're now losing income.

It adds up fast. There is basically nowhere in the US that this is a living wage. At best you can barely scrape by with no margin for error -- and certainly no money to spend on training for a better job.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#174

Post by gruez »

pydry wrote: post #160
gruez wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point. Absent any competition (which there won't be, because everyone is subject to the same minimum wage), the cost is fully passed on to the customers (ie. "everyone else"). Therefore your conclusion is incorrect.

How is that the point? The studies I've seen tend to say that minimum wage hikes tend to come from profits. E.g. https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/203233/1/1667730924....

In the short term or long term? I skimmed the study and it looks like they only looked at two years? In the short term I can see it happening due to psychological effects like price stickiness, but I'm skeptical that in the long term the trend would hold. As evidence to the contrary:

>Ashenfelter says the evidence from increased food prices suggests that basically all of the "increase of labor costs gets passed right on to the customers."

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/02/16/967333964/what...

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#175

Post by AlexandrB »

itronitron wrote: post #34
LatteLazy wrote: post #3

Neither. If employers really wanted more workers, they'd up wages. If employees really wanted to work they'd settle for less. If neither is happening then everyone is happy and anyone complaining is a liar in the economic sense.

There is also a nasty waiting game that is playing out right now. Employers don't really want to hire people that need a paycheck as those people, if hired, are more likely to ask for more sooner. So employers have no incentive to advertise higher wages for an open position because they will just get more applicants from people who 'need money', not necessarily better applicants.

I don't think a lot of people work in fulfillment centers, construction, fast food, or retail because they love the job. Most people are there because they "need money". If employers think otherwise they have been drinking too much of their own coolaid about "passion".

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#176

Post by inetknght »

paulpauper wrote: post #152
honksillet wrote: post #56

There are no such things as “jobs americans won’t do”. It’s just you have to compensate people accordingly. With this failing stealth UBI experiment that we are currently engaged in, people aren’t willing to work when many of them are getting near 100% the same income not to work. The rest of us are being crushed by inflation.

But inflaiton is very low. yeah, CPI excludes stuff, but we're a long way from the 70s and 80s.

> inflaiton is very low

No it isn't. My rent is up 80% since two years ago. Food costs are up 40%. Healthcare is up 200%. Good news though: fuel costs are about the same!

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#177

Post by leetcrew »

paulpauper wrote: post #162
gruez wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe a high schooler should be focusing on school. How do you feel about college students working part time during their studies?

only if they need the $ and there is no other option . the ROI from a high GPA and good grad school, makes the extra $ from a crappy part-time job insignificant.

imo this is one of those things that makes sense on paper but doesn't work out in real life. the extra lifetime earnings from a first job in hs/college are indeed insignificant. the value of a job is that, for many teenagers and young adults, it is the first time they have to navigate an environment that isn't specifically designed to cater to their needs. this is how most of life is when you finish school.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#179

Post by gruez »

colpabar wrote: post #171
gruez wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that has nothing to do with GP's claim? GP was talking about your "net pay is below zero", meaning that the job itself pays negative. eg. you get paid $50/day but spent $55/day to earn it. Your comment seems to be about the minimum wage not being able to sustain a given living standard, eg. you get paid $50/day but you need to spend $55/day to survive.

First off, it's not $50 per day, because you're probably paying income tax. But let's assume it is. Second, it's not really "per day", that's an average. Most bills recur monthly. Assuming a month of four weeks, and working 5 days per week, that's 20 * $50 = $1000 per month. Doesn't that seem like an extremely low number to pay for rent, transportation, food, health care, kids, utilities, etc? I pay more for that in…

>seem like an extremely low number to pay for rent, transportation, food, health care, kids, utilities, etc?

everything in that list except for transportation are sunk costs. In other words, you're paying for those regardless of whether you have the job or not.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#180

Post by gruez »

jfengel wrote: post #173
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

Is it really that hard to imagine? For starters, you don't want to have to work every single day. If you work 5 days out of every 7, you only have $41.43 to spend per day. The average cost of a studio apartment is over $900 a month. That's $30 per day. Even if you get roommates, that's going to cost you at least $15 per day. That leaves you $26 a day to spend on food, clothing, hygiene, Internet access, electricity,…

>The average cost of a studio apartment is over $900 a month [...] That leaves you $26 a day to spend on food, clothing, hygiene, Internet access, electricity, transportation, health care

Seems like we're talking about different things. I was talking about the net gain/loss from getting a job, whereas you're talking about your overall living situation.

See my reply to jolux's comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26996114

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