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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#171

Post by Muromec »

mythrwy wrote: post #148
metiscus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway. The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it…

`By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white.` Thought experiment. Two crazy looking homeless people approach you yelling. They are dirty in ripped clothes and look to be high on strong drugs. One is black, one is white. Do you feel better about, or differentiate the white person because he is "your people"?

If you are a cop —- the answetis yes, yes of course.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#172

Post by lrem »

hn8788 wrote: post #34

Doesn't suprise me. My wife is from a rural town in NC, and was told by her high school teachers that she needed to lose her southern accent if she wanted to be taken seriously in college. When she was working on or master's degree in Maryland, a writing professor commented "you speak and write so well, I never would have guessed you're from the south". That kind of discrimination is very prevalent in academia and me…

This is really unsurprising for an European. Where I live, a couple day hike can take you to places where people speak at least 6 distinct languages. It's rather obvious that any attempt at mobility will cause you to be treated as an immigrant.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#173

Post by golemiprague »

metiscus wrote: post #144
golemiprague wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he argued that by being white he might have some advantages, although it can be argued especially these days. His point was that there are million of other parameters that can affect ones life experience, so why just one advantage in the skin colour department makes him priviliged when he had so many other disadvantages in other departments.

What I was explaining is my understanding of the point of view of the people who believe he does have privilege for his race. It is not my belief but I try to understand all sides of arguments and did my best to represent it. To continue, briefly. The difference between the various other types of benefits vs "whiteness" is twofold but interconnected. It is obvious who is and is not in the group and the group has inst…

I don't care whose position it is and I apreciate your effort to explain it, no need to apologise.

Regarding the point itself, rich people or higher classes people as a group also have "institutional power", much more than white people as a group. It is pretty easy to differentiate people background after some sentences as the research shows. So the only difference between those two disadvantages is exchanging some words. Even if it is a significant difference, it still doesn't change or cancel other circumstances in a person life and doesn't make this difference overruling any other difference.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#174

Post by ZephyrBlu »

epgui wrote: post #164
throawy-poor wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you will get some replies with the depth of "it would be worse if you were not white." I think there is only the smallest amount of truth there. Here are things that have happened to me, a poor white kid from california (and this is just off the top of my head): I could never join a sports team in school or other extra curricular, that shit's expensive. I had to steal food to get enough to eat. I've been pulled over…

Nobody can take these experiences away from you or discount the difficulties you went through. But saying that you don't have white privilege because you grew up poor is not quite right either. The thing with privilege is that there's more than one kind, and they all add up (and most likely they interact as different factors, so they're more than additive). * If you're non-white in the US, you're underprivileged. * I…

Do you believe that being black or white has a larger impact than being poor or rich?

If so, why?

If not, why do people focus so much on race instead of wealth?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#175

Post by curiousgal »

lrem wrote: post #172
hn8788 wrote: post #34

Doesn't suprise me. My wife is from a rural town in NC, and was told by her high school teachers that she needed to lose her southern accent if she wanted to be taken seriously in college. When she was working on or master's degree in Maryland, a writing professor commented "you speak and write so well, I never would have guessed you're from the south". That kind of discrimination is very prevalent in academia and me…

This is really unsurprising for an European. Where I live, a couple day hike can take you to places where people speak at least 6 distinct languages. It's rather obvious that any attempt at mobility will cause you to be treated as an immigrant.

> will cause you to be treated as an immigrant.

Me, an immigrant: :|

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#177

Post by Gene_Parmesan »

shard wrote: post #141
renewiltord wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, HN frequently touts the benefits of "just talk to someone about their work" over the impartial whiteboard interview. I far prefer the Software Engineering industry's focus on design and coding interviews. Impartial. Unrealistic. But fair.

Unfortunately once you move past the lower working level software/engineering jobs, either vertically to team lead positions or horizontally to product management or marketing or sales, whiteboard interviews are not that helpful, as soft skills becomes as important if not more important than technical skills for success at work.

Not only that, but whiteboarding very rarely tests for skills actually needed at the job. As you progress in your career, things like "I have held down the following software development jobs for X years...." are going to be far better ways to judge technical capabilities that are actually relevant to the job than 30-60 minutes of whiteboarding.

Many many different industries have jobs that require technical skills -- not tech as in technolgy -- and they get away just fine with managing to hire people. Nurses need to be able to nurse, a highly technical skillset; no one is having nurses give fake shots on test dummies during interviews. They use credentials and experience, and accept the risk that a hire might not pan out.

The fact that we want senior level developers to have to refresh/cram before interviews on how to implement graph search algs and hash tables just so they can pass some artificial whiteboarding section is a bit crazy. Their actual job experience over the past N years should be what counts.

Now, conversations about how one would solve technical problems of a sort actually faced on the job are totally on point, and really should be a part of any job interview in any field.

edit: Really, what we want as engineering types is for there to exist a way to gauge ability in a purely objective way. But there isn't one; it doesn't exist. Furthermore, you are building a team of people. IMO the focus should really be on fit and soft skills regardless. Make sure they meet a minimum bar of technical ability, then work to verify whether they'll be a productive, beneficial teammate.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#178

Post by KMag »

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #114
mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

This is how research works, you isolate variables. By OP’s logic science is never testing for anything “real.” I’m not surprised that HN rushes to discredit the idea that hiring is not a perfect meritocracy, but this is kinda silly.

> I’m not surprised that HN rushes to discredit the idea that hiring is not a perfect meritocracy, but this is kinda silly.

I think this is a straw man argument, unless you can point to more than one person here (now I see none) arguing hiring is a perfect meritocracy.

I see lots of people questioning the methodology and conclusions drawn, but I don't see anyone claiming hiring is perfectly meritocratic.

On the one hand, if we need to perfectly understand the problem before starting to solve it, we'll be forever stuck in analysis. On the other hand, if we are incorrect in our initial analysis, we risk wasting time and other resources on the wrong solutions, reducing resources available for other solutions further down the road. It's very important to distinguish constructive criticism from animosity.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#179

Post by HPsquared »

pedrosorio wrote: post #129
mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

> What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. In an interview where you're not allowed to evaluate "all other things". In other words, absent any other information, people believe those from a higher class are more likely to be competent. Is that true? The link says nothing about it. If it is true, the hiring managers did a go…

I wonder what the class breakdown would be if the hiring managers had access to all other relevant information about the candidates, EXCEPT socioeconomic class... I'd expect the more 'upper class' candidates probably would do better on average.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#180

Post by kodah »

newacct583 wrote: post #43
throwawayboise wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> class bias is never addressed at all You see this a lot in online forums, e.g. a person will blithely mock "wal-mart shoppers" or "rednecks" without rebuke and then jump down your throat with "white privilege" if they perceive the slightest possiblity of you questioning a racial bias claim.

Interestingly, I see some of the former in online forums. I see a decent amount of the latter, both with and without justification. I've never in my life seen a single poster do that. You have a cite demonstrating this happens "a lot"? This sounds like a strawman. You're taking a criticism often made (again, not without justification) against "your side" and arguing against it by charging the "other side" with hipocr…

You can search my username and the word "redneck" and you'll find one.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25702815

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