A house 3D printed from raw earth • Hacker News Board

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#171

Post by dclowd9901 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #130

It seems strange that there is so much focus on 3D printing structures. Any close look at where the costs go in home construction can easily verify that foundations and services (power, water, sewage) are where the majority of the costs are. It always makes sense to pinch pennies, but starting with one of the smallest line items limits potential improvement. What we really need are ongoing improvements to modular ser…

I’m very fearful of the incentives that come with making infrastructure easier and cheaper to install. We already have issues around sprawl, which is a gigantic waste of resources. Making it easier for people to extend their last miles puts an undue strain on the system and the environment.

Maybe centering such infrastructure around self containment would prevent some of that but in itself seems wasteful (everyone needs their own water pump, sewage system and electrical generation management equipment?)

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#172

Post by CyberDildonics » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

Glawen wrote: post #151

CyberDildonics wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running electrical, plumbing, air conditioning etc through this structure is doable but much harder, You realize there are lots of brick houses out there and those things aren't run through the brick walls either right? 2x4 dimensional lumber framing is used inside and those are run through the studs.

I live in a brick house in Europe, and my plumbing and wire do run in the walls. I just cut the wall, run my wires inside and cover with plaster.

Your plumbing and wires are actually embedded into the brick walls? Not just a hole through the brick, but they are actually completely within the brick walls themselves?

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#173

Post by ihunter2839 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #32

reversengineer wrote: post #26

Excellent idea as a proof of concept, and even beautiful in design. However one cannot help but wonder how structurally sound these materials are. Stress tests are needed to determine how well this would hold up over years of exposure to the elements before being produced en masse. For a sustainable alternative, homes made from repurposed shipping containers are a cost-effective solution for housing. They are made of…

I don't understand why people think shipping containers are a good idea for housing. They were never designed for this and will always be compromised when you come to put windows, doors, insulation and services in them.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "compromised"? Sure, they can no longer be stacked 7 units high, but I am skeptical that cutting out a handful of windows and a door is going to make a container structurally unsound for the purposes of container homes.

Cut out a whole side wall? That's a very different story.

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#174

Post by brudgers » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

nanna wrote: post #86

Lots of unfair negativity here. I think this is wonderful. HN is full of random hacked-up tech that will never solve the worlds problems but nonetheless give a glimpse at what alternatives could look like. Experiments. This is what this is, and in my opinion it's stunning and I would move into one in an instant.

The negativity is no more unwarranted than positivity. Each depends on what problem a person values. In terms of housing the unhoused this doesn’t do anything. In terms of aesthetic possibilities for people with money it provides another option where a wide array of options already exist.

In HN terms, this is a “rewritten in Haskell.” It demonstrates someone understands a bit about 3D printing. It demonstrates some ideological purity. It doesn’t demonstrate a better solution to existing problems.

The complexity of the logistical chain precludes wide spread application where housing is a basic need. You don’t just need the printer machine. You need a fleet of other machines to keep it full of ink. Shovels won’t do.

In the 1950’s, my mentor the late David Crane, FAIA was a young man. He enthusiastically designed precast concrete shelters for post disaster housing. Running the economics at the end of it, its viability was mostly limited to lower Manhattan.

People have been solving housing for millennia. Stick lumber and reinforced concrete are real breakthroughs by virtue of their commoditization.

This is wrapped up in secret sauce. Beautiful as with the myriad other beautiful ways to build.

Most choices are not between bread and cake. They are bread or nothing.

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#175

Post by danans » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:53 PM UTC

doh wrote: post #72

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Up until last 40 years ago people didn't want to live on the ocean. Now they can't get enough. US has a huge swaths of land empty, especially in the Pacific Northwest. Can you expand on this please? What do you mean by 'people didn't want to live on the ocean' and also, what do you mean by 'vast swaths of empty land in the PNW'. Are you talking east of the cascades? I don't think there is a whole lot of land there w…

> What do you mean by 'people didn't want to live on the ocean' I remember Arnold Schwarzenegger being confused why "nobody" wanted to live in Santa Monica or Venice Beach to a point that the government was subsidizing it to attract people. For instance north of San Diego there are old apartment buildings on the water that have only window facing the ocean in their bathroom. Historically ocean was considered as a has…

> Historically ocean was considered as a hassle. You have to deal with the salty air that breaks down many material quite swiftly.

Not only that, but you don't have to go very far from the ocean for the saltiness of the air to diminish, so there's not much sacrifice if you value being at the ocean.

There's also a social element to it. Historically, most of the people living by an ocean were those traditionally employed in traditionally ocean-related industries, like fishing, canning, and shipping.

These are traditionally associated with a grimier and more impoverished state of existence, because in most industrial cities, that's how oceanfronts were (or still are).

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#176

Post by vkou » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

bakatubas wrote: post #169

ogre_codes wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are better ways to build affordable housing already. You make a factory that builds prefabricated panels then deliver them onsite. With prefab, you don’t need to transport an expensive piece of equipment to remote parts of the world and have onsite experts there to supervise and repair it. You don’t have to deal with tear down and setup of the equipment at every site and installers have predictable channels to…

The first computers filled up an entire room and look where we are now... This is a proof of concept and surely it will be refined to make more efficient construction processes.

> The first computers filled up an entire room and look where we are now...

So, in how many decades do you project that a house will cost $300, and will provide shelter for half-a-million people?

Why compare to computing, which is a discipline that's less to a century old, when you can compare to any other millenia-old-industry, some of which have seen revolutionary improvements, some of which have seen minor incremental improvements, and some of which have seen serious cost and/or quality regressions over that period of time?

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#177

Post by nawitus » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

elihu wrote: post #163

m0llusk wrote: post #130

It seems strange that there is so much focus on 3D printing structures. Any close look at where the costs go in home construction can easily verify that foundations and services (power, water, sewage) are where the majority of the costs are. It always makes sense to pinch pennies, but starting with one of the smallest line items limits potential improvement. What we really need are ongoing improvements to modular ser…

It seems like installing electrical and plumbing could be a lot easier if a 3D printed building was constructed with all the necessary channels for utilities already there in the walls, and all you have to do is feed wires and pipes through the routes and connect everything. Similarly, finish work is simpler if you don't have to put sheet rock up, and can just use the existing wall texture. I think the bigger advanta…

Something like this already exists; you can construct a house from concrete elements with premade channels/cavities for the wires and pipes. However, they need to be finished up, I think with drywall usually.

I'm not aware this method has any real cost savings though compared to wood frame construction.

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#178

Post by Animats » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #145

noughtme wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. Having worked in building construction, both classes of coatings would have relevant applications. I was going to complain that Mapei has not released any technical details, but it appears they have: https://www.mapei.com/it/en/news-and-events/event-detail/201... However, that their "water-repellent" provides "waterproofing" does not clear things up.

The actual products that make it work: Mapesoil 10.[1] "High-performance, fibre-reinforced powdered stabilising agent for sports sub-base contruction surfaces".The amount of Mapesoil 10 required is 3%-5% of the dirt weight. Comes in 500kg bags, on pallets. Dynamon SR4 [2] "Superplasticizer based on acrylic polymer for concrete with long slump retention". About 1%-2% of the mix. That gets the material through the 3D p…

When you add up all the additives, it's about the same as the percentage of cement in concrete. This isn't "raw earth".

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#179

Post by quickthrowman » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #118

JAlexoid wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sewage is absolutely NOT a problem for a single story houses. No large sewage pipes are installed in the walls of all single story houses.

Sometimes they are. My house is single story and has sewage pipes in the walls. Regardless of whether that is a requirement, the pipes have to go through some part of the structure to get to the outside, regardless of whether that's a wall, floor, foundation, etc.

Your toilet pipes are inside a wall? That’s pretty strange, toilet drain pipe is usually 3” dia. Are there 90 degree bends? I don’t understand how or why you’d put a toilet drain pipe in a wall when the drain pipe is in the middle of a bathroom floor, not in a wall.

Are you sure you aren’t thinking of sink drains?

Re: A house 3D printed from raw earth

#180

Post by lhpz » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

Bender wrote: post #127

lhpz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thermal resistance of raw earth is not good, similar to that of concrete. Thermal conductivity is around 10 W/m.K. To be compared to 0.1 W/m.K for a typical building insulating material. But raw earth is porous and will store moisture, hence behaves like a two-phase material. Water in the earth may vaporize or condensate in the pores, which helps in regulating indoor moisture levels, and explains the high thermal…

Thankyou for that really detailed explanation. That reaffirms for me that I will most likely stick with aircrete and concrete/shotcrete when it comes time to build a few hobby structures I had in mind. Out of curiosity, could you suggest what material would be best for storing heat from the sun? I am going to build a greenhouse that will face the south and have a wall on the north side to absorb heat. I have seen som…

If you want to store solar heat, you cannot beat water @4000J/kg.K. Black barrels of water is probably the best solution, yet a very simple solution. I've checked the thermal capacity tables, only ammonia would do a slightly better job than water !

I also toy with the idea of building a greenhouse myself, that's why I have done some research. If you want to harness the thermal capacity of earth for a greenhouse, I know of two tricks:

- Excavate one or two meters of soil to build a “pit” greenhouse. You will get earth walls connected to an immense thermal storage capacity. This is the so called Walipini greenhouse concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walipini

- The diurnal and seasonal temperature oscillations dampen quickly with depth in the ground. Below some meters of soil, the temperature will be stable at the average annual temperature at your location (Ta). If you can dig a trench to lay underground pipes to create a ground/air heat exchange connected to your greenhouse, you will get a free source of air heated at (Ta) in winter or cooled down to the same (Ta) in summer. Fans to force air circulation will help.