The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world • Hacker News Board

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#171

Post by throw1234651234 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #146

ChrisBland wrote: post #96

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

Which is to say diving is a sport that can be safe, but only assuming you are actively and honestly engaged in making it safe. I am not diving but I am sailing and for the most part sailing is a safe sport assuming you are prepped including mental preparation. If you are not, things can get downhill pretty fast. I consider diving one of the sports where you place yourself in a situation where you are dead by default…

Tangential, but driving never quite feels safe if you are pushing the car. At least not without inspecting the entire suspension every month or two. And that's ignoring anything internal, like your clutch fork giving out, or bending a rod, or your inner tie-rods disconnecting, or your brake cable tearing, or...

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#172

Post by whymauri » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #159

Syonyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

> It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. There are a couple of high risk groups. One is young guys with a combination of inexperience and a desire to go fast(er than conditions/skills allow). Another is older guys, often who haven't ridden for years if ever, who get into trouble. Again inexperience is a big factor in both.

The older guys scare me more, especially on scenic drives like Blue Ridge. They can outright bully normal drivers (surrounding them to force them to go faster). Of course, these are the vast minority of motorcyclists, but it's still a recurrent issue.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#173

Post by lbrindze » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

It turns out almost all the organizations follow the same training standards set out by the WRSTC (World Recreational Scuba Training Council). The big exception is CMAS which past level 2 no longer is comparable to the WRSTC program tracks since it allows for decompression diving on air down to 40m (level 2) and 56m (level 3).

This means even with an advanced or master diver certificate from PADI, (NAUI, SDI, SSI, etc...) the tables you learn to use do not go beyond decompression limits (requiring mandated decompression stops on your ascent) since they stop at 30m. It used to be 40m but I believe the standard has become more conservative since I was last teaching. NAUI does have supplemental training that goes beyond WRSTC standards but a lot of that has to do with the science and ecology of the underwater world more generally.

All open water level certs (usually the most basic level cert) expects students to be fully autonomous (with their buddies) by the end of the course. If you sign up for an open water dive in southern. California for example, it is rarely a guided experience and most people form groups of 2-3 on the boat and go and enjoy the water, coming back within an 1-1.5 hours. Almost everywhere else I have worked, it is expected (by the guests...) that all dives in open water are lead by a certified dive master and not self lead in small groups. I personally think this is a result of the way the standards and incentives work for dive operators to encourage that dependency on their outfit and keep the money flowing in.

Generally recreational diving is very safe but even working as an instructor for a few years at a few different outfits, there is always a handful of fatalities. I really like the comparison to Skydiving someone else made, except its a much more subtle danger since you dont actually need to be in top physical shape to do this activity (even though it is required by the certification agencies).

The only other thing I find interesting is all the certification agencies are for the INSTRUCTORS (hence the I in PADI, NAUI, SSI...). These orgs are outfits that enable recreational scuba operators to have a standardized set of empirically derived safety limits to protect the instructor and shop liability (not the student's). More often than not, especially in far flung, remote diving destinations, caution is thrown to the wind and people do not always follow the prescribed standards.

Source: OWSI (Open water scuba instructor) with multiple agencies as well as CMAS level 3 diver

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#174

Post by nradov » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

lbrindze wrote: post #163

ghostpepper wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very curious what gas blend were you using at 300 ft - I'm fairly sure that would be fatal on air or even nitrox. I'm also shocked that you could come up from that depth with any sort of urgency and not be seriously injured / killed by some form of DCS. Maybe I misunderstood and you were not a beginner, because otherwise that tour operator has no business running a dive op.

Nitrox is 100% fatal at depths beyond prescribed limit. The whole point of Nitrox is to increases the oxygen content in the gas to minimize nitrogen absorption. A side effect of this is that you will get to hyperoxic poisoning thresholds earlier on a deeper dive profile. This is why Nitrox requires additional certifications, to help understand these limitations and learn how to calculate your max operating depth. (wh…

We still use helium for mixed gas diving but it is more expensive now. Human tissue does absorb helium in much the same way as nitrogen (or any other inert gas). The rate of diffusion is a little different which can impact the decompression profile.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#175

Post by codeduck » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #159

Syonyk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

> It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. There are a couple of high risk groups. One is young guys with a combination of inexperience and a desire to go fast(er than conditions/skills allow). Another is older guys, often who haven't ridden for years if ever, who get into trouble. Again inexperience is a big factor in both.

Last time I looked at the numbers, the peaks were at 6 months to a year of experience riding, and the second at 3 to 4 years. The first peak being generally due to inexperience, the second to overconfidence.

Lack of regular experience is definitely a contributing factor. Muscle memory has a half life.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#176

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

Starwatcher2001 wrote: post #126

spaetzleesser wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.

If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously.

Doesn't sound like the evidence backs this assertion, irrespective of your experience.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#177

Post by amerkhalid » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

agent008t wrote: post #16

Diving seems like one of the recreational activities where it is easy to end up doing something much riskier than you intended (another I'd say is alpine hiking): 1. Being able to easily sign up for a dive at an all-inclusive resort makes it seem more 'fine', you get a false sense of security that you will be taken care of. 2. Dive shops tend to be fairly relaxed with checking if someone is properly qualified to go o…

> These experiences - combined with the general experience of wasting the whole day on a rocky boat breathing diesel fumes for an hour or so of diving - make me reluctant to dive again, unless the sight is particularly picturesque.

In my other comment, I recommended that everyone try Scuba diving at least once, cannot edit it now but there is another option, free diving. Most of the reefs and fishes are around 30-40 feet depth. With free diving, you can experience beauty of seas without carrying heavy equipment, worrying about equipment failure, ascending too fast, etc.

I have also because of similar reasons, moved my focus on free diving. There is less overall risk in my opinion, as long as you are not pushing your limits.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#178

Post by whymauri » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #64

izacus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this literally just happened to me here in Switzerland. An "easy" route at around 2300m which was great - a nice wide, cleaned road around snowy areas. And then suddenly a steep descent with 30+ cm of frozen iced snow. Without proper equipment, that would be extremely dangerous and even with equipment is was far outside the comfort zone.

Ice can be particularly tricky. One of the nice things about modern traction gear is that it's easy and light to toss in a pack "just in case." That said, with harder ice and steeper terrain, it's not a replacement for more specialized gear. I tried to do one hike this winter that wasn't even particularly hard but it was really icy and cold and the steep parts were steep enough. I ended up turning around given that I…

I turned around at Bright Angel in the Grand Canyon this Winter. Despite being real bummed about it, I headed down Hermit's Rest which gets more sun and was no longer icy.

"Oh well, I'll settle today" I thought. Midway down Hermit's Rest I cross a much more experienced hiker -- she had lived in and around the Grand Canyon full-time for a year. She was only coming back to the Rim to move her car due to the incoming on-season (yeah, just a "casual" river to rim and back, lol). She told me she had just been around Bright Angel the day prior and had seen a girl be air-lifted away with a broken leg. Even though she had microspikes and months of winter experience in that park specifically, she bailed.

Suddenly, I didn't feel like I settled anymore... turning back can save lives and limbs. The majority of the time, nature (and the trail) will still be there when you return. It will certainly outlast you, if anything.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#179

Post by notacoward » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #26

agent008t wrote: post #16

Diving seems like one of the recreational activities where it is easy to end up doing something much riskier than you intended (another I'd say is alpine hiking): 1. Being able to easily sign up for a dive at an all-inclusive resort makes it seem more 'fine', you get a false sense of security that you will be taken care of. 2. Dive shops tend to be fairly relaxed with checking if someone is properly qualified to go o…

The two biggest things with alpine hiking are probably weather and not turning around when you should. (I could probably add just being grossly ill-prepared like lacking map and compass and perhaps depending too much on electronic gizmos.) Over the holidays I was reading a book about a winter fatality on Mount Washington a few years back. The person was actually very well-prepared and fit. And even had some big mount…

For those who don't know, there are signs around the "presidential" peaks in the White Mountains that say:

> The area ahead has the worst weather in America. Many have died of exposure even in the summer. Turn back _now_ if the weather is bad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ScarySigns/comments/ekx3rw/found_wh...

They are NOT kidding. Things can go from beautiful to ugly very quickly. 5,000 feet might seem like a joke to somebody from out west, but it's not all smooth trails (practically the same as pavement) with plenty of switchbacks like you're used to. When you're on steep nasty almost-technical terrain and its wet and hella windy, safety can suddenly be a long way away.

I know those mountains very well, I'm a strong hiker even by local standards, and I still make sure to exercise plenty of caution every time. Those rocks are not to be trifled with.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#180

Post by margalabargala » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

ChrisBland wrote: post #96

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

> I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving

As a licensed skydiver who got out of the sport partially because I didn't like the culture, I assure you that a huge amount of the skydiving industry also views it like a roller coaster ride.