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Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

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Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#171

Post by gonehome »

mrtksn wrote: post #168
gonehome wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it's not always easy to get consensus doesn't mean all positions are equally valid. In countries with rule of law, elections, and free press, the law in that country holds more importance than unelected dictatorships with state controlled media. Small L liberalism has a lot of values around the things you suggest: free speech, freedom of expression, laws against violence. A lot of these values make the a…

I don't say they are all equally valid but what's the solutions here? Impose your own rights as long as you can? I guess that's an option but it leads to armed conflicts. As for the "US superiority" argument, some argue that US is no different than North Korea, maybe US corporations should consider Nordic morales and laws when doing business in India then? After all, according to democracy index Norway is much more d…

> "some argue that US is no different than North Korea"

I'm not sure anyone actually argues this? If they do they're not really worth your time.

This isn't "US superiority" it's about rights for individuals in a liberal society. If the US fails to meet these goals then it should do better too.

> "However ridiculous I find these claims, as you can see, it's not a clear cut in the US too. Twitter was even considered a part of the conspiracy."

It's pretty clear cut - lots of people believe insane things, that doesn't make the truth unclear.

> "Indians might ask, why should they be subjected to the morals of US deep state cabal?"

I doubt Indians would ask that, they might ask why a western company is aiding their own government in suppressing the truth about their family and friends dying from Covid though.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#172

Post by fighterpilot »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #154
ButtSpark69 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” I think that's a bit of an unfair phrasing. How about "Good people upholding their morals instead of dropping them at the door when they go to work" I really am not a fan of how far we've taken the general image that 'business is business' and a bunch of regular morals are OK to toss out. We should preserve the social stigma we hold against people equ…

Twitter allows posting of naked photos. I have no problems with this, but should a country's laws against pornography be ignored because "our morals are superior"?

I don't think it's valid to compare different pornography laws with a government censoring criticism. The former has very little societal significance, the latter is correlated with rather unpleasant state authoritarianism.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#173

Post by fighterpilot »

forks34 wrote: post #163
ButtSpark69 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” I think that's a bit of an unfair phrasing. How about "Good people upholding their morals instead of dropping them at the door when they go to work" I really am not a fan of how far we've taken the general image that 'business is business' and a bunch of regular morals are OK to toss out. We should preserve the social stigma we hold against people equ…

No. The U.S. 300 million citizen don’t have the monopoly on morals when 1 billion Indians have a different idea about them. So don’t be pretentious, adapt to local laws and let people figure out their own ideas about life. Maybe, just maybe, the U.S. has the wrong laws.

1 billion Indians aren't all supporters of government censorship of criticism.

If the US government enacted some ridiculous law, you would hope that US corporations would try to push back a bit, at least rhetorically, because you recognize that the state isn't its people. Why suddenly the different tone for India?

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#174

Post by gonehome »

colinmhayes wrote: post #141
gonehome wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should expect better: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html This is a disappointing outcome of our community (software engineers, hackers, builders) and our technology - the web as we've built it. The promise of decentralized communications empowering people. We should expect more, those in a position to do the right thing at Twitter should try to do so. I hope long term something like urbit wi…

What can twitter do? Close the site in India? That accomplishes nothing. If they don't censor their local employees would be put in jail and they would be banned. Neither seems like it would be any better.

> "What can twitter do? Close the site in India? That accomplishes nothing."

Sure - if it came to that, try and get Indians access anyway via VPNs, making it easy to access over Tor, helping them get on Twitter anyway.

You can accomplish something by not sacrificing your principles. Doing the right thing matters when it's hard. Anyone can do the right thing when it's also the easy thing.

I'm not a crazed absolutist - I'm pragmatic, I just find western companies repeatedly capitulating to authoritarian countries very frustrating. People have given up their lives to fight for these things and western companies can't even risk getting kicked out?

South Park's Band In China episode was right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_China

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#175

Post by runeks »

gregjor wrote: post #110
reallymental wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think "democracy" means the exact opposite of what you've said there. The people have asked for free speech, not censorship. And dragging the British East India Company into every argument about India sheds more light into the inadequacy of us Indians to move past it. We're supposed to be healing ourselves by constructively criticizing our behavior towards others and ourselves...not by endlessly blaming the pa…

Democracy and free speech do not necessarily go together. Democracy is a system of government “by the people,” usually in the form of voting for representatives. Censorship and free speech do not necessarily follow from that political system, being more in the realm of basic human rights. Around the world democracy takes many forms. So do cultural and political notions of free speech, and government’s role regulating…

What if, in a democracy, 51% of voters agree to take away the voting rights of the remaining 49%? Would this still be a “democracy”?

Related to this is the question of whether a democracy even makes sense without freedom of speech. How is the voter supposed to know who to vote for if the opposition party is not allowed to criticize the incumbents?

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#176

Post by FlyingSnake »

ButtSpark69 wrote: post #113
mrtksn wrote: post #49

The expectation that a corporation operating in India will not obey Indian laws but American ones is appalling. EU, Canada, China, Turkey or North Korea - if you want to do business there you have to respect their laws. “For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” is a deeply flawed idea. If Indians believe that they need wider free speech rights or other protections, they need to change their p…

“For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” I think that's a bit of an unfair phrasing. How about "Good people upholding their morals instead of dropping them at the door when they go to work" I really am not a fan of how far we've taken the general image that 'business is business' and a bunch of regular morals are OK to toss out. We should preserve the social stigma we hold against people equ…

> Good people upholding their morals instead of dropping them at the door when they go to work

Who gets to define the "Good people"? We've seen time and again that the social media platforms are far from altruistic and in fact enable movements like Trump '16 and Brexit. I agree with your general point though, we should hold companies accountable to the same rigor that we have for govts and individuals.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#177

Post by fakedang »

mrtksn wrote: post #49

The expectation that a corporation operating in India will not obey Indian laws but American ones is appalling. EU, Canada, China, Turkey or North Korea - if you want to do business there you have to respect their laws. “For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” is a deeply flawed idea. If Indians believe that they need wider free speech rights or other protections, they need to change their p…

Uh, hello? By law India is a democracy, where it has always been OK to criticize the government - at least up until 2014, when the current government began abusing the British Era sedition laws. I think every Indian on this site is old enough to remember who the protests against the Delhi Rape Crisis and the government response were effectively coordinated on Twitter and Facebook.

Twitter wouldn't have been breaking any laws if precedent weren't being set by this government.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#178

Post by vmception »

alkonaut wrote: post #170
vmception wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some fundamental values of the company they do you just misinterpreted what the fundamental values were

My second expectation is that I expect companies not to have "deliver maximum value to its shareholders" as its fundamental value or guiding principle (Unsure if that's what you were alluding to here). That is: I basically expect companies to leave huge amounts of (their investors') money on the table when it goes against the ethical/moral compass of a vocal minority of its users, owners, or employees.

I wasn’t directly alluding to that, more so something like access to a market is more important and maintaining a relationship with the governing gatekeepers of that market is the priority, until the governing body says they cant do an increasing level of business in that government’s markets, thats when the corporation will consider to exit the market entirely

If you want that to be “shareholder value” then sure, but I’m saying corporations don't have strong opinions on anything except antitrust and employees telling them what to do. It is much more predictable along these lines instead of imagining any other abstract expectation of corporations and being surprised over and over again for your whole life.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#179

Post by colinmhayes »

gonehome wrote: post #174
colinmhayes wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can twitter do? Close the site in India? That accomplishes nothing. If they don't censor their local employees would be put in jail and they would be banned. Neither seems like it would be any better.

> "What can twitter do? Close the site in India? That accomplishes nothing." Sure - if it came to that, try and get Indians access anyway via VPNs, making it easy to access over Tor, helping them get on Twitter anyway. You can accomplish something by not sacrificing your principles. Doing the right thing matters when it's hard. Anyone can do the right thing when it's also the easy thing. I'm not a crazed absolutist -…

People using VPNs can already access the censored tweets. They're only censored in India. I understand the sacrificing your principles argument, but imo the only principle that matters is do what you can to make the world a better place. I don't see how shutting down twitter in india accomplishes that. In fact I'd say shutting down is unprincipled because it deprives literally a billion people of something they might enjoy.

Re: Twitter is blocking tweets that criticize the Indian government

#180

Post by idownvoted »

ButtSpark69 wrote: post #113
mrtksn wrote: post #49

The expectation that a corporation operating in India will not obey Indian laws but American ones is appalling. EU, Canada, China, Turkey or North Korea - if you want to do business there you have to respect their laws. “For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” is a deeply flawed idea. If Indians believe that they need wider free speech rights or other protections, they need to change their p…

“For profit US corporation fighting foreign government atrocities” I think that's a bit of an unfair phrasing. How about "Good people upholding their morals instead of dropping them at the door when they go to work" I really am not a fan of how far we've taken the general image that 'business is business' and a bunch of regular morals are OK to toss out. We should preserve the social stigma we hold against people equ…

> upholding their morals

What ethics are you talking about?

The ones where they silenced "Far-Right" Sceptics of Corona-Measures in Europe? A rapper responding with "ok, dude" to a trans person? HK Virologist Li Meng-Yan? The government of Hungary?

Or where they permanently ban conservative cartoonists, the MyPillow guy, Project Veritas – but not the Ayatollah?

AFAIC there's nothing special here to see. Standard Twitter Behaviour.

Also OP's critique is misguided, as there is no specific Indian law Twitter would have broken (according to the article) if it hadn't complied with the government's request. Likewise, there was no law forcing twitter to permanently ban the accounts I've mentioned.

Twitter is just a typical SV org, laden with upper-class virtue-signalers, who couldn't even notice their own bigotry if the stench of human-feces covered San Francisco actually made it into their comfy homes.

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