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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#171

Post by falcolas »

jedberg wrote: post #136
falcolas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the exact numbers for this case, but contractors always appear to be overpaid. What most people who call them overpaid miss is that contractors have to pay their own employment taxes, as well as any health benefits (including vacation time) they want out of that income. If you consider those, the cost of your average employee to the company employing them is roughly 1.6x to 2x their gross income. An over…

And the point of the person above you is that after the lawsuit, they had all those things retroactively paid for, so they ended up making more than they would have as employees.

The parent makes no such claims. They claim that prior to the lawsuit they were being paid "higher wages", and stock options after. There is no mention of taxes, health care, vacation, etc.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#172

Post by Larrikin »

ketamine__ wrote: post #121
hirsin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This project happens to be owned by Google" is common for a reason.

I don't understand your response.

As a Google employee, Google owns everything you make even in your free time unless you go through some kind of process. Never worked there so don't know the details but have had it confirmed from other Google engineers.

Some other companies got this idea as well, but it's usually very easy to get that removed from an offer.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#173

Post by 908B64B197 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #118
dcolkitt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

There is no single way of doing contract work. And the kind of thing Google does provide very little benefit to the contractor vs an employee. I don't know how it is in the US but we have the same issues in France. The law is called "délit de marchandage" and what it means, essentially, is that a contractor is treated like an employee but without the benefits of an employee. The idea of the law is that contract work…

Part of the problem in France is that it seems firing underperforming employees is almost impossible (multi-year process)

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#174

Post by lhorie »

plank_time wrote: post #127
advisedwang wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the article - they aren't complaining about pay, they are complaining about job security. They are doing work that is going to be needed for the foreseeable future but can only work 2 years before they have to leave (for a period).

They are low value workers. They don’t get job security. That’s the reality of it. They are replaceable with people with no experience. They have to understand that. There’s no job security to waiters either or Uber drivers. Just because they work in a datacenter doesn’t mean they deserve more money for a low value job. If they want a full time job, they need to elevate themselves. Educate yourself, get a degree, fin…

> If they want a full time job, they need to elevate themselves

This suggestion only makes sense until it doesn't. Suppose everyone actually took that advice. Then you'd have an entire population of overqualified people who cannot find jobs that are appropriate to their skill level and who still have to take crappy jobs. Paradoxically, maybe even you are one of them. Then what?

Now consider that this upleveling actually does happen for many people, and yet the issue of risk of financial ruin continues to exist for the bottom rungs in perpetuity.

Also, the point about deserving feels a bit myopic. Does someone deserve to be so poor that their family ends up resorting to tax funded programs like unemployment benefits, or worse, they turn to stealing, landing in jail and imposing a $40k tax burden per head on the rest of the population?

If the money flows from big corps to privileged highly paid workers pockets to the IRS to govt-run programs, why not just route the money directly to the less privileged so govt programs are less needed in the first place? The status quo is really not that different from Omelas[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#175

Post by jakub_g »

Dev in France, sounds very familiar, except the force-quit bit.

As a fresh graduate in bigcorp world, especially foreigner who doesn't know on arrival how this works:

You get hired by SSII (Société de services et d'ingénierie en informatique), and do same work as regular staff employees of bigcorp, in the same building etc., except you get sad contractor badge, and no yearly bonuses and perks. The promise is to become staff after 2 years but the bigcorp has arbitrary quotas (per department) on how many people get converted, "hiring freezes" etc.; some people remain contractors for years and years, in the same team (which is pretty much illegal as far as I can tell) as the bigcorp likes to have a bunch of contractors that can be fired quickly in case shit happens (like covid).

It's not _too bad_ because the job at middleman company is typically "CDI" aka "unfirable" due to French labor law, but when all the people around you doing same job as you get a juicy yearly bonus and you don't, it gets you really angry. I was super glad when I found a better company which doesn't do that bullshit and hires everyone as staff.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#176

Post by ClumsyPilot »

qwytw wrote: post #86
scoopdewoop wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who would keep the data centers running? The invisible hand of the market? Labor does stuff.

They They could hire a smaller of more qualified and invest more into automation. The only reason Google is doing this is because they don't want to spend the same amount on benefits and other overhead on 15$ per hour worker as they do for a 30$ per hour one.

"invest more into automation"

Like they were sitting there and paying for all this work they could automate, but now they are gonna wake up and autonate it all in a day

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#178

Post by gnopgnip »

username90 wrote: post #152
enragedcacti wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are laws against providing different tiers for some benefits (I'm pretty certain healthcare is one). So if Google were to hire them, it has to decide if its worth lowering the standard of healthcare for their six-figure engineers or giving these datacenter employees a really expensive healthcare plan.

I didn't know that, why do USA try to make companies take the role of a government, except that they can fire you?

They don't make anyone take the role of a government. The US government gives tax breaks for certain benefits available to all employees. If the benefits are only available to certain employees, the company loses those tax benefits.

Would it be fair for another company to get a tax deduction for paid meals, 100% employer paid healthcare just to the executives while everyone else has to pay to eat in the cafeteria and pay for their own healthcare?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#179

Post by TrackerFF »

plank_time wrote: post #94

I’m getting tired of these low-value workers complaining they should be paid as well as high-value workers. They were hired with no skills, and were trained from the ground up. They are getting a livable wage but now they want more. If they want more, they need to elevate their worth and become high value employees or find a better job that values them better. They are contractors. Because of their particular life ex…

Please, do tell, of all the fresh college grads that get hired for dev/SWE jobs at Big N companies, how many have specialized skills that will bring value from day 1?

In fact, how many weeks / months / years does it take for someone to become a consistent value-add contributor to ANY company?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#180

Post by mstipetic »

Goronmon wrote: post #158
syshum wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh the old "Greater Good", the most evil phrase in the English Language Anyone attempting to do anything for "the greater good" should be viewed with suspicion and disrespect as most at best what they are attempting to do no matter the intent will fail and harm more people than it will help At worst is it just a shield to cover their immoral actions, or thirst for power Every person that values freedom, individualit…

Every person that values freedom, individuality, and prosperity should reject any policy or law that is based on a "greater good" narrative So pretty much all laws and policies? Anarchy doesn't seem that sustainable.

I don’t understand why all the staunch libertarians just don’t move to a favela or some other similar place where they can enjoy absolute freedoms
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