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Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#171

Post by jonathanstrange »

Tenoke wrote: post #147
jonathanstrange wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then. There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June. However, where I live all experts recommended wearing masks from the start. They did say that people should not rush to buy FFP2 masks and chirurgical masks at a time when there was a shortage of those for health professionals, which was definitely the rig…

>There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June You are downplaying it - they were actively taking a stance against them in the US and June was already quite late into the pandemic. The WHO themselves were advising people NOT to wear a mask and that it might be even more dangerous to wear one than not to wear it months into the pandemic.. They also only…

First, we'll have to ignore the US because the government interference and rampant irrationality there caused hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Regarding the EU: I feel a certain irony, because I was among those who complained that experts give the wrong advice for noble reasons (partly due to good information from HN, btw), called it a "King's Lie" and was heavily downvoted for it on various social media. So I'll be the first to admit that some officials were not as clear about it as they should have been.

However, many people fail to correctly interpret official statements, especially those made by WHO at the time. You only ever officially recommend something in evidence-based medicine if there is evidence of its beneficial effects, never out of a gut feeling. They should have said "we are using masks because we believe they work but we're short of them and so you shouldn't buy them" and instead said "there is no evidence that wearing masks is beneficial and it could even be dangerous" to prevent shortage. The WHO's statement lacked transparency but if they had stated that everybody should wear masks in March 2020, the effects would have been disastrous for health authorities all over the world. National health authorities did the very same at the time, and I used to point out that a "King's Lie" like this, no matter how noble the motives, will likely backfire - as evidenced by your statements.

Still, if you listened closely, no expert I know of has ever said in any interview that masks don't help. That's all I wanted to point out.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#172

Post by natdempk »

cyberpsybin wrote: post #157

Pfizer and J&J also have the blood clotting issue. At this rate these countries will have no vaccine left to pick from.

Source? I think you are incorrect about Pfizer. Given it is mRNA based, to the best of my knowledge it hasn’t been linked to blood clots in any way.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#173

Post by sofixa »

febeling wrote: post #166
de_keyboard wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there were broadly 3 strategies: 1. Do very little intervention, but perhaps isolate the vulnerable. This was the "Sweden strategy". 2. Do big interventions if cases rise, but only so far as is required to prevent hospitals being over-whelmed. This was the strategy in most of Europe, and in particular the UK. 3. Do big interventions with the intention of reaching "covid zero", including restrictions on intern…

So why not choose (1)? This seems to have been the strategy in the past with similar risks. And it avoids the costs of freedom and live at the same time. What am I missing?

That it doesn't work. Sweden had to go back on it, and in many countries trying to do (1) ended up with hospitals full - like France. Everything was done to avoid a third lockdown this spring, but hospitals are at 150% capacity and here we are again. Are you aware of some magic trick that negates that?

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#174

Post by eloff »

de_keyboard wrote: post #136
eloff wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

I think there were broadly 3 strategies: 1. Do very little intervention, but perhaps isolate the vulnerable. This was the "Sweden strategy". 2. Do big interventions if cases rise, but only so far as is required to prevent hospitals being over-whelmed. This was the strategy in most of Europe, and in particular the UK. 3. Do big interventions with the intention of reaching "covid zero", including restrictions on intern…

To be in (3) though you have to isolate your country right at the beginning before the action can be politically justified.

I'm quite surprised that China was able to pull it off, because they're a major trade economy and must have millions of people coming and going. Of course it helps to have a government that can take any action without regard for rights or political consequences.

This is impossible I think for a country like the US with vital land borders and constant trade across them. I think it's also very hard for democratic counties where people have rights.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#175

Post by dusted »

alkonaut wrote: post #3

Not giving it to 65+ people seems overly cautious. There are zero cases in that group and even just a small delay will mean many dead. This is trading a potential unlikely side effect for a large number of severe Covid cases in high risk groups. Edit: yes I'm aware they have only a dozen or so dead per week but that also translates to hundreds of severe cases, missed elective surgeries, etc. For what would most likel…

It's kinda complicated, while I'm 100% on board with vaccinating, I do see the problem..

"You have some chance of getting Covid" then "If you get Covid you have some chances of getting seriously ill, permanent damage or die"

vs

"You have 100% chance of getting the vaccine" then "If you get the vaccine, you have come chance of dying"

So it's not super simple to calculate the risk, especially not for me, so I shouldn't comment at all..

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#176

Post by corty »

Svip wrote: post #91
schattschneider wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on this platform, I assume, are familiar with the scientific consensus on these topics and generally side with the science. But one has to understand, that these decisions are not made directly by scientists but by politicians who have scientific advisors. And as politicians, they will factor in a lot more than just the hard science on a topic, which can result in seemingly unscientific decisions that go again…

Except this decision was made by the relevant authorities and not by politicians. If anything, Danish politicians are probably not keen on this decision, but have chosen to respect it. It should also be noted that Denmark has a relatively low infection rate, which is probably why politicians has decided not to interfere in the decision.

It should also be noted that public health officials are usually the lowest rungs of the ladder when it comes to ability in medicine. Running your own practice, running a research institute or chair or even just working in a hospital is far more interesting financially as well as for the challenge. Becoming a public servant as a doctor is a way out when your marks are just above passing or your motivation is insufficient for anything with even minimal amounts of stress (of course not atm, but that is an exception).

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#177

Post by imwillofficial »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #167
ceejayoz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confidently stated, but the impact of lockdowns is likely more complex in reality. It may require years of research to tease out all the components; lockdown vs general pandemic stress, differences in implementation, etc. For example: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... > Rate ratios (RRs) and 95% CIs based on the observed versus expected numbers of suicides showed no evidence of a signifi…

Less human contact, less stress, less suicide.

You are literally 100% wrong. Less human contact, more stress, more suicide. We are social creatures and crave human contact. (Generally of course.)

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#178

Post by corty »

caddemon wrote: post #169
schattschneider wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on this platform, I assume, are familiar with the scientific consensus on these topics and generally side with the science. But one has to understand, that these decisions are not made directly by scientists but by politicians who have scientific advisors. And as politicians, they will factor in a lot more than just the hard science on a topic, which can result in seemingly unscientific decisions that go again…

The scientific consensus on issues like this as they emerge evolves rapidly though. And I think "degree of uncertainty" is something that is lost on educated lay people when they try to keep up to date with the science. Just look at the messaging surrounding masks in March 2020. Public health issues are further complicated by what messages are thought to result in the best population behavior. There are articles in m…

Messaging around masks is a perfect example of politics ignoring science and public health officials just trying to justify political decisions by cherry-picking studies or plainly stating falsehoods "for the greater good".

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#179

Post by ceejayoz »

imwillofficial wrote: post #177
GoblinSlayer wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less human contact, less stress, less suicide.

You are literally 100% wrong. Less human contact, more stress, more suicide. We are social creatures and crave human contact. (Generally of course.)

> more suicide

Except the actual statistics linked upthread say otherwise thus far.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#180

Post by throwaway4good »

caddemon wrote: post #151
throwaway4good wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They used to give AZ to mostly younger people as the side effects where seen to be stronger than for the PFE. A fear could be that when they start to give the PFE to younger people, they will see the same stuff as with AZ as it triggers the same immune response.

Pfizer has been distributed to many young people in other countries though and no such issue has popped up. Not saying it's outside the realm of possibility, but I think it's increasingly unlikely. Plus it'd be no surprise to me for the mRNA vaccines to have somewhat different side effect profile than the "traditional" ones.

It also seems that different countries have different criterias for what side effects they tolerate.
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