DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#171

Post by jfager » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:27 PM UTC

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #103

If I had to tackle the notion of over-personalization in ~5 minutes, I'd say: - If someone prefers to search Google without personalization, add "&pws=0" (the "pws" stands for "personalized web search") to the end of the Google search url to turn it off, or use the incognito version of Chrome. Personalization tends to be a nice relevance improvement overall, but it doesn't trigger that much--when it launched, the imp…

If someone prefers to search Google without personalization, add "&pws=0" (the "pws" stands for "personalized web search")

"Append a cryptic query param" is a terrible user interface, and it's a little silly to suggest this as a solution. Make it an option real people can discover and use.

when it launched

Just curious, why add this qualification? Is it significantly different now?

the impact was on the order of one search result above the fold for one in five search results.

That statistic needs a little clarifying. Query terms frequency follows a power law distribution, doesn't it? So if you're counting each individual term, the fact that 1 in 20 have altered results could very easily still mean a majority of actual searches are altered. And depending on how you calculated the 'one search result above the fold' number, it could very easily still mean that when a page is altered, it's altered significantly.

More interesting would be knowing these stats for just the fat head of the query term distribution.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#172

Post by Sephr » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:32 PM UTC

newman314 wrote: post #164

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #103

If I had to tackle the notion of over-personalization in ~5 minutes, I'd say: - If someone prefers to search Google without personalization, add "&pws=0" (the "pws" stands for "personalized web search") to the end of the Google search url to turn it off, or use the incognito version of Chrome. Personalization tends to be a nice relevance improvement overall, but it doesn't trigger that much--when it launched, the imp…

Here is a slightly different question, how do you get "no country redirect" to stick reliably? I cant begin to describe how annoying it is that I am presented with a different language when travelling to a different country. All I ever want is Google in English but it keeps going back to a localized search regardless of the many times that I choose "google in english"

It's a shame how Google completely disregards your HTTP Accept-Language header. If they didn't, this would be much less of a problem.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#173

Post by widget » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

malaka wrote: post #167

"But aren't you a part of the relevance equation? The ideal results for a search like [bitcoin crash] should be different for a Japanese-speaking searcher in Tokyo vs. a German-speaking searcher in Munich vs. a bitcoin expert vs. a programmer trying to diagnose why compiling bitcoin is crashing vs. my Mom who has never heard of bitcoin before, right?" Maybe, but that is not the point. Besides, you are mixing localiza…

Of course Google can't read minds, that does not mean they should ignore information that they have when deciding which results to show or what order to show them in. Sufficient data to provide a better filter for a given user is not the same as mind reading.

You are absolutely right that more criteria should be used if a user is interested in better results, but I fail to see why a deterministic base case is superior. If I never click on news links and always click on travel links, it makes perfect sense for Google to assume that my search for "Egypt" is looking for information related to travel to Egypt. If I am not following my usual search patterns, I can look on the second page, or I can disable personalized search, or I can search for "Egypt News" all of which would give me better results.

Why is it preferable to always make everyone clarify their searches when there is sufficient information to narrow the search down somewhat without requiring additional intervention by the user? This is usability 101 right here.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#174

Post by Matt_Cutts » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:39 PM UTC

newman314 wrote: post #164

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #103

If I had to tackle the notion of over-personalization in ~5 minutes, I'd say: - If someone prefers to search Google without personalization, add "&pws=0" (the "pws" stands for "personalized web search") to the end of the Google search url to turn it off, or use the incognito version of Chrome. Personalization tends to be a nice relevance improvement overall, but it doesn't trigger that much--when it launched, the imp…

Here is a slightly different question, how do you get "no country redirect" to stick reliably? I cant begin to describe how annoying it is that I am presented with a different language when travelling to a different country. All I ever want is Google in English but it keeps going back to a localized search regardless of the many times that I choose "google in english"

Good question. I just saw an expert in the hallway and asked him. The basic answer is that your preference is stored in a cookie, so the preference would be forgotten if you're clearing cookies. If you still have the same cookie and yet the "no country redirect" isn't sticking, that's a bug we could dig into.

By the way, I asked why the "no country redirect" isn't stored with your Google account rather with a cookie. The main reason he gave was that whether to do a country redirect is one of the first things we decide, and it's faster to use a cookie for that than to go looking up the user's account setting. Or at least, cookies have been faster up until this point. Hope that helps explain things.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#175

Post by newman314 » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #169

newman314 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a slightly different question, how do you get "no country redirect" to stick reliably? I cant begin to describe how annoying it is that I am presented with a different language when travelling to a different country. All I ever want is Google in English but it keeps going back to a localized search regardless of the many times that I choose "google in english"

I suppose you know about http://www.google.com/ncr ? It works some of the time. Some of the time it doesn't, e.g. now when Google has custom logos I'll get a search term in Dutch (I'm in The Netherlands) when I click on it, even though I'm using google.com in English when doing so.

Yes, I know about about /ncr but its hard/impossible to set that on a mobile device

Also, it only works sometimes.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#176

Post by newman314 » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:57 PM UTC

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #174

newman314 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a slightly different question, how do you get "no country redirect" to stick reliably? I cant begin to describe how annoying it is that I am presented with a different language when travelling to a different country. All I ever want is Google in English but it keeps going back to a localized search regardless of the many times that I choose "google in english"

Good question. I just saw an expert in the hallway and asked him. The basic answer is that your preference is stored in a cookie, so the preference would be forgotten if you're clearing cookies. If you still have the same cookie and yet the "no country redirect" isn't sticking, that's a bug we could dig into. By the way, I asked why the "no country redirect" isn't stored with your Google account rather with a cookie.…

I regularly see this without clearing cookies, so yes, I would consider this a bug.

There seems to be no discernible pattern as to why it works in one session, suspend laptop, go somewhere else and it stops working. Or it'll work twice in a row and when I return location a (both in the same foreign country), it stops working.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#177

Post by newman314 » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

newman314 wrote: post #175

avar wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you know about http://www.google.com/ncr ? It works some of the time. Some of the time it doesn't, e.g. now when Google has custom logos I'll get a search term in Dutch (I'm in The Netherlands) when I click on it, even though I'm using google.com in English when doing so.

Yes, I know about about /ncr but its hard/impossible to set that on a mobile device Also, it only works sometimes.

As yet another aside, has anyone else noticed how it is pretty much impossible to set SafeSearch to off without being logged in?

Trying to set the cookie just does not seem to stick

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#178

Post by loup-vaillant » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 10:16 PM UTC

widget wrote: post #128

loup-vaillant wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phrasing was a bit harsh. I understand that Google (and others) are mainly out to make money. To do that they have to please users most. Anyway, they probably can't make the difference between "relevant" and "pleasant", because user's behaviour only grant them access to "pleasant". As long as this is done in a neutral way (by delivering the same result to everyone), any confirmation bias will be averaged across en…

I cannot see a problem here. Who exactly is being hurt by the "filter bubble"? The end user is fine - they are more likely to see results they are actually interested in. If a user doesn't trust a source and won't click on their links, they'll soon not have to bother scrolling past them. The sites themselves actually benefit as well. Sure, they may be bumped from the first page of results for users that are unlikely…

The end user is not fine. He is more likely to see results that he actually agree with. See, the original confirmation bias will cause you to seek opinions you agree with more often than others. The search engine will then conclude that you are more interested in the kind of sources those opinions come from. That would be true, by the way, but then comes a point when a quick glance at your search engine result will show you more of what you agree with, and less of what you disagree with.

Now go use that as an estimation of popularity and veracity. I bet many people do, without knowing the result is strongly biased by their own prior behaviour.

Search engine, as the sole entry point of the web, do bias it. Page Rank for instance, could trigger a feedback loop: if a site is more prominent in searches, it will get more links. That will get them more search prominence, and feedback and foom.

Now is the popular bias better than the personal bias? I think it is. One would at least get to be exposed to other's opinions, instead of just his own.

If you just care about the economy of the web, in the sense of selling, advertising, promoting, buying… then of course the personal bias is currently best. That's the most efficient way to milk the tear$ out of eyeballs. The easiest way to reward the brains behind those eyeballs. When it's all about money, there is absolutely no problem with the method. But I have other values besides money. A very important one is respecting curiosity and search for truth. The personal bias doesn't.

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#179

Post by gnosis » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 10:17 PM UTC

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #143

jannes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I don't believe that over-personalization is an issue. (As I already said in another comment.) But here's why some people probably don't like personalization: It's invisible. There is nothing on the results page that tells you whether your results are personalized or not. Sure, you can look at whether the browser is in incognito mode or you can look for some parameter in the URL, but these things require tha…

"But here's why some people probably don't like personalization: It's invisible. There is nothing on the results page that tells you whether your results are personalized or not." Sorry, this is just not the case: we do provide indication on Google's search results page for personalized results. Here's a couple links that talk about how we surface whether results have been personalized: http://www.google.com/support/…

I'm sorry, but a "View Customizations" link is nowhere near as clear as a simple statement like "These search results have been personalized." right on top of the search results page, where you can't miss it.

But the real solution is to use a search engine that does not track you. Even better is to use it in such a way that it can't track you (ie. through a Tor proxy, while taking other reasonable precautions).

Re: DuckDuckGo: Escape your search engine filter bubble

#180

Post by Matt_Cutts » Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 10:39 PM UTC

newman314 wrote: post #176

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I just saw an expert in the hallway and asked him. The basic answer is that your preference is stored in a cookie, so the preference would be forgotten if you're clearing cookies. If you still have the same cookie and yet the "no country redirect" isn't sticking, that's a bug we could dig into. By the way, I asked why the "no country redirect" isn't stored with your Google account rather with a cookie.…

I regularly see this without clearing cookies, so yes, I would consider this a bug. There seems to be no discernible pattern as to why it works in one session, suspend laptop, go somewhere else and it stops working. Or it'll work twice in a row and when I return location a (both in the same foreign country), it stops working.

Interesting. HN isn't ideal for debugging, but if you wanted to send cookies or IP addresses (e.g. via Twitter), I could see if someone could look into it.