Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#171

Post by grishka » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

retube wrote: post #100

grishka wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cars regularly send basic data I'm still terrified by the fact that some cars now apparently have network interfaces for some reason.

Got a courtesy call from BMW the other day to let me know my brake fluid needed changing and would I like an appointment made at my nearest garage? I get that there are privacy concerns, but also that's pretty cool. It also has GPS and will automatically alert BNW if air bags are deployed. Has saved lives.

> Got a courtesy call from BMW the other day to let me know my brake fluid needed changing and would I like an appointment made at my nearest garage?

That's only marginally better than it popping up an alert on the dashboard, which many modern cars most probably do anyway, but imo it feels like something of a privacy invasion.

> It also has GPS and will automatically alert BNW if air bags are deployed. Has saved lives.

Aren't there systems that automatically call an emergency number and send GPS coordinates when they detect a crash? I think I read somewhere that some countries are even going to mandate them on new cars.

(Disclaimer: I'm not much into cars. I do have a driving license, but I don't own a car and don't drive very often.)

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#172

Post by simonh » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #117

AlexandrB wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be pedantic, but Steam was collecting its 30% long before the App Store opened. Thought maybe that was inspired by Apple's cut of music revenues in the iTunes Store.

I could walk into Best Buy and buy the game I want off the shelf. I have no such option if I want to buy an iOS app from a store or the developers themselves. Steam also don't engage in anti-competitive behavior and prevent billions of people from using alternative game distribution methods like Apple does. What we need is real competition in the mobile app distribution market to determine whether or not that 30% is…

That's simply not true, Android outsells iOS, it has multiple App Stores and allows sideloading. Plenty of phones come with 2 or 3 different app stores from the network, vendor and Google. The fact is consumers like app stores, they like consolidation because it makes it simpler for them and a lot of them like the benefits they get from a walled garden. Developers like consolidation too, which is why they have converged on the Play Store en masse on Android. These things benefit them, and the vast, vast majority appreciate those benefits more than they appreciate the benefits of managing multiple competing stores and side loading downloaded APKs.

You can't magic those preferences away. Even if you forced iOS to become an Android clone with multiple app stores and sideloading you can't force people to like those things. You'd just be giving an extra option to a very small subset of techies who have Android now to do that on already anyway. The market has spoken and it likes nice simple well managed choices because that's what the people want.

Why is it that Apple have to make the solution a small subset of people want. Why is that their problem to solve?

Maybe these stores converged on 30% because it's a nice round number and a roughly 1:2 split makes intuitive sense. Consoles, music stores, Steam, mobile app stores, they've all circled around about that number for a very long time. Some have tried around 20/80 to grab market share but it never worked, Nintendo tried 35/65 for a while before going to 30/70. In the end it's natural that competitive forces will tend to a convergence.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#173

Post by slg » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

kuratkull wrote: post #149

wmichelin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that telemetry is inherently bad. As product engineers, telemetry is often our only visibility into whether or not a system is functioning healthily. How else can you detect difficult-to-spot bugs in production?

As a software engineer I disagree. You are saying that you want to collect my personal information so you can fix your bugs. I don't see it being a valuable trade. I'll just find someone who can fix their bugs without tracking me.

>You are saying that you want to collect my personal information so you can fix your bugs.

How do you define personal information? Let's use Chrome as an example. Recording what website I visit is clearly personal information. What about recording how many tabs I have open, how much RAM each tab is using, and when each tab was last viewed? Is that personal information to you? I personally don't value keeping that private and it is probably a valuable piece of information that could help the developers improve what has been one of the biggest user complaints about Chrome since almost its release.

I think that is generally OP's point. Each piece of data exists on a spectrum in value for both the user and the developer. Data should be kept private when it has value to the user. There is little harm in sharing the data with the developer when the user would deem it low value and the developer would deem it high value.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#174

Post by jstanley » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

wmichelin wrote: post #115

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

" Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways." -Google This is a beautiful quote because it is an example of one industry's bad behavior leading to another industry's bad behavior, upon which the first industry then users the second's similarity to justify themselves. Cars only started doin…

I disagree that telemetry is inherently bad. As product engineers, telemetry is often our only visibility into whether or not a system is functioning healthily. How else can you detect difficult-to-spot bugs in production?

> our only visibility into whether or not a system is functioning healthily.

Your problem here is viewing the end user's setup as part of your system.

It's the user's private system -- why should you have any visibility into how it is functioning?

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#175

Post by Jommi » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

flemhans wrote: post #148

tchalla wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's similar to when Apple defended it's 30% store cut by claiming it's an "industry standard"... specifically, an industry standard that Apple established. Apple established a standard for the Apple app store. There was a lot of complaint about "Apple Tax" and Apple merely pointed out that it wasn't a "Apple Tax". Sure, Apple started it but others which are not even connected to the Apple ecosystem simply followed…

It even polluted into other markets, like Wolt.com taking a 30% (!!) cut of food delivered using their platform. On top of the actual delivery charges. I remember thinking that Just-Eat.com were criminals for taking 10%. Hungry.dk takes 1-2%.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

You're most likely not being fair with what services these platforms provide, or how they structure their fees.

Wolt and other companies like UberEats or Postmates are food discovery, delivery and PoS platforms (and more). They don't operate on any single commission model.

(Ofc one could argue this pricing complexity is intentional so that comparing is more difficult)

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#176

Post by memetomancer » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #163

rdw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take. A sibling comment notes that Steam charged 30% at the time (though some had better deals) but it's worth noting that Steam was not an open platform that anyone could publish on. Much like for consoles, to put a game on Steam you had to have a preexisting relationship with Valve, or try to de…

This is such a nonsense justification. You want to sell software you wrote to run on an iphone. You have zero choice. Apple tax your revenue. You want to sell software you wrote to run on a pc. Steam is not your only choice. I am not defending steam or valve here, I've never sold anything using their stuff, nor am I suggesting anything other than that their market power over pc compared to apple's store over the ipho…

Are you implying that you feel entitled to sell software on Apple's tightly controlled consumer devices?

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#177

Post by harry8 » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

Every week there's a story here on HN that makes me mourn the demise of the Nokia N900. Still the best smartphone ever made by a massive margin.

I hope both those things are made obsolete by stories of smartphones that work well and are vastly more trustworthy than Google and Apple. The longer it takes, the harder it gets. Whatsapp/Signal ports are now hard requirements for much of the population. :S

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#178

Post by harry8 » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

memetomancer wrote: post #176

harry8 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a nonsense justification. You want to sell software you wrote to run on an iphone. You have zero choice. Apple tax your revenue. You want to sell software you wrote to run on a pc. Steam is not your only choice. I am not defending steam or valve here, I've never sold anything using their stuff, nor am I suggesting anything other than that their market power over pc compared to apple's store over the ipho…

Are you implying that you feel entitled to sell software on Apple's tightly controlled consumer devices?

I am stating, very clearly, that Apple have massive market power that they are abusing. This is known in economics circles as "market failure" and across the spectrum from Keynsians to Neo-classical economists is seen as a compelling case for regulation.

Why are you implying I am saying something different to what I /said/.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#179

Post by babypuncher » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #163

rdw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take. A sibling comment notes that Steam charged 30% at the time (though some had better deals) but it's worth noting that Steam was not an open platform that anyone could publish on. Much like for consoles, to put a game on Steam you had to have a preexisting relationship with Valve, or try to de…

This is such a nonsense justification. You want to sell software you wrote to run on an iphone. You have zero choice. Apple tax your revenue. You want to sell software you wrote to run on a pc. Steam is not your only choice. I am not defending steam or valve here, I've never sold anything using their stuff, nor am I suggesting anything other than that their market power over pc compared to apple's store over the ipho…

I think the point is that Steam manages to do just fine while charging 30%, on a platform where developers could easily choose to self-publish. For small developers, that 30% is worth it because the value Steam brings to them is worth more than the revenue it takes. The only ones choosing to go elsewhere are massive publishers that can market their own storefronts, and indie devs taking large up front payments from Epic to leave Steam.

I can see both sides of the argument here. It sucks having no choice as a developer, and feeling forced pay Apple a tax just to get paid for your work. It's especially egregious with subscriptions, where Apple doesn't even do any of the content delivery. However, as a user, I think it would also suck if a huge player like Facebook or Google decided to open up their own iOS App Stores, and developers started flocking to them as a means to escape Apples increasingly strict app privacy rules.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#180

Post by echelon » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

rdw wrote: post #34

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

" Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways." -Google This is a beautiful quote because it is an example of one industry's bad behavior leading to another industry's bad behavior, upon which the first industry then users the second's similarity to justify themselves. Cars only started doin…

The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take. A sibling comment notes that Steam charged 30% at the time (though some had better deals) but it's worth noting that Steam was not an open platform that anyone could publish on. Much like for consoles, to put a game on Steam you had to have a preexisting relationship with Valve, or try to de…

> The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take.

Why didn't Steve Jobs go with web distribution of first class web apps or allow Flash on his platform? If they truly wanted to be remarkable, this would have been the future.

The answer is control.

Apple is a cutthroat business just like any other, and their "privacy first" veneer is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. They're playing it up as an attack against Google and Facebook, meanwhile they still phone home about the apps you're running and can shut them off remotely.

Microsoft never taxed software on their platform. Jobs had to invent that business model. It flourished like wildflowers thanks to him.