Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#171

Post by benhoyt » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

wrnr wrote: post #38

Good looking women (and men) have an easier time making progress in their carrier at least up to the point when everybody starts assuming they just got where they are because of their looks. Companies with an explicit diversity and inclusion statement on their job applications get more minority applicants but hire proportionally less minority candidates, speculation range from smug interviewers to interviewees being…

> Companies with an explicit diversity and inclusion statement on their job applications get more minority applicants but hire proportionally less minority candidates

I'm curious: do you have a source for that?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#172

Post by mrweasel » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #57

I wrote a long reply to this and then binned it. Perhaps that captures the essence of what I was going to say.

Same here, it's not really worth trying. You feel like you're being completely reasonable, but you just know that any mistake in wording, minor details or missteps, is going to be used to attack you. Any relevant comment or question you have will be sidesteps, to attack and label you.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#173

Post by baby » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

BonoboIO wrote: post #152

baby wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian guy I probably would have reported you if you had told me something like this :D My advice to you: "Think about what you would have told a white man"

"Think about what you would have told a white man" Well that leads to something like "Toughen Up, It's Part of the Job". I don't think it helps to activly missunderstand people, when they are trying to be helpful EVEN if their trying is in the wrong. Try to think about the intention and maybe ask what they really meant by that.

How is it? My advice is to avoid telling such bullshit based on how I look.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#174

Post by flir » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #104

simonbarker87 wrote: post #82

> I’m not going to suggest a solution to the problem of men clamming up. I find this a little frustrating, they’ve noticed a pattern of behaviour that concerns them in an area they are clearly invested in - yet they have no thoughts or suggestions on how to address this? Is it possible they are not offering such thoughts because of the same issue they have highlighted in the article?

Why does someone need to have a solution in order for their observation of a problem to be considered valid? Maybe the problem is real but they just don’t have as solution?

I noticed it happened a lot on MeFi when I was active there. Vast reams of text about how terrible X is, but ask what we should do about it and... crickets.

Yes, the observation's valid, but... I don't know. When the conversation keeps happening the same way, over may topics, you have to figure there's something deeper going on.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#175

Post by snicksnak » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

This trend isn't going away anytime soon, In fact I think it's just ramping up and is accelerating, especially with the racism narrative the main stream media outlets started to heavily push ~2 years ago and the big identity movement. It will continue until there is consensus, that this climate is bad, for everyone involved. I don't see that happen anytime soon, the cancelations will continue until moral improves.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#176

Post by zepto » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #96

gpt3fake wrote: post #77

Why would you talk to women at all professionally, unless there are reliable witnesses or video recordings? As we increasingly see, witch hunts are already possible by deliberately misinterpreting written statements like mails or bug tracker messages. I would not want to get into a he-said-she-said real life situation. Mike Pence understood this early.

Because I'm a professional, and strive to avoid treating people differently based on their gender/sex?

What about race?

I ask because if you took that same attitude towards race, you could easily be accused of colorblind racism.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#177

Post by anonfornoreason » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #9

Reminds me of the phenomenon recorded of men avoiding women after the original #metoo thing. Part of this is that I think that men feel they are walking on egg shells. The kinds of male assertiveness that my wife found attractive when she met me also can leave women who aren't into this assertiveness feeling harassed. I feel that we need to be clear more about what is "desirable" masculinity it "desirable assertivene…

One of the most offended I’ve seen my wife be was when she was told the only reason she wanted an assertive man was because she was brainwashed and deep down didn’t want it and was actually oppressed. She was a victim of the white male patriarchy and by being part of it she was an implicit supporter of racism. Meaning she had her agency to be her own person and have her own desires taken away from her, at least in this person’s eyes. She ended up not talking to this other person because she couldn’t get over the condescension. The feeling that the other person thought they were more enlightened or better than her. The only times I have stopped friendships have been similar - feeling like the other person looked down on me because of my choices or who I was.

I think there is a lot of pain brewing, and whether or not people come out the other side of it more entrenched in their worldview, or with more humility after having learned from the wild ride we are currently on.

Heck maybe I’ll come out the other side finally believing that there is only one true way to look at people and relationships and power differences, and any deviation from that is violence.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#178

Post by BonoboIO » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

insensible wrote: post #100

Der_Einzige wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation is extremely sad because the whole "have the confidence of a medicine white man" thing is a common slogan used by feminists to try to combat the general lower levels of self-confidence among women. I guess you yourself repeating the same woke quite took away the uniqueness of the idea as it would be articulated by a non privledged individual. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-15/carry-yourself-with-t…

I made a successful complaint to my HR department when someone used that very phrase. I very much agreed with the part of the person's intent to support and embolden the woman. But it's not OK to attack other people in the effort to support someone. Why not say something positive like "other people can do it, so can you"?

What was the outcome of your complaint to the HR department?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#179

Post by darkerside » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

It's not just about giving feedback, it's also about how you give it. "You should switch roles" is a terrible piece of feedback. "You are failing to do X, Y, and Z; and Fred is doing those things very well" is much better. It allows for autonomy in determining how the team wants to handle said feedback, whether it's swapping roles, improving at current roles, or going out and finding more aligned investors.

Maybe doing it the first way works, too, but I think it is poor, lazy communication that used the zeitgeist as a crutch to make a difficult point. That doesn't mean it can't be done well and respectfully, which the given example perhaps did not.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#180

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

worker767424 wrote: post #151

Remember how Mike Pence basically avoids being alone with a woman unless his wife is present? As ridiculous as it sounds, that self-preservation strategy got him to VP.

I don't think that policy is ridiculous at all. It's mine as well, and IIRC it was Billy Graham's.

It minimizes the chances of (a) false accusations of inappropriate behavior, and (b) adultery.

It makes me a little sad for the limits it imposes on my friendships with women, but I consider the tradeoff very worthwhile.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that everyone should adopt my policy. I'm just saying that in my particular life circumstances, and with my particular ranking of concerns/values, it's a tradeoff that I find worthwhile.