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Early-Retirement Update

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Re: Early-Retirement Update

#171

Post by bulletwolf »

I've got 5 years of early retirement under my belt, and I feel like I've had the inverse experience of the OP. The first two years were an incredibly difficult transition period for me.

Losing the status of being a higher up at a successful (small) company was extremely painful, especially because I didn't realize how much of a perk of the job it was. Like many others in this thread, I realized work provided a venue to solve interesting problems with interesting people, and I knew I would miss that (but also knew there were other, non-work ways to scratch that itch). Looking back, though, the ego/status aspect was probably the biggest benefit, and I never admitted that to myself.

Fairly soon into retirement, I made the choice to address the issue by decreasing my ego needs, rather than pursuing another high status non-work position. In some sense, it wasn't too hard to do (though I did find that I had to give up programming for a while, since it turned out that, despite my love of math and puzzle solving, the real biggest draw of programming was the megalomaniacal sense of being a god in a universe of your own creation). The issue is, I went too far, and experienced pretty significant depersonalization, which, from the inside wasn't terrible, but I think made me too weird to interact with my family and friends.

I've currently accepted more ego back into my life (hence this self-centered posting, for instance), but kept it below the old levels. I'm happy with my life, and find it much more even keeled and comfortable than when I was working, though I still miss the emotional highs of succeeding in a big work project.

Anyway, I think what really got me to log on here and post this was seeing the various other posters claiming work as a source of meaning and maybe poo pooing the OP, a bit, for giving it up. Now, on the one hand, I'm not really disagreeing, but I just wanted to add the nuance that, for me, turns out most of that meaning was not coming from nice pro-social things like cooperating with a team and working on interesting problems, but mostly just base status drive and ego. Now, I don't know how much my experience applies to the general population and most jobs, but I have a feeling it probably does apply to a fair chunk of the readers of this forum.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#172

Post by [deleted] »

dkarp wrote: post #8

Short Version: - LeanFIRE in 2015 (~30Kish USD annual spend) - first couple years were great, in the third year cracks started to show - they and their partner's goals were no longer aligned and they ended up splitting - OP was diagnosed with a genetic condition that changed their expenses and lifestyle - Ended up getting a job again at the end, but while "retired" their net worth actually increased by 20%

[deleted]

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#173

Post by joshuaissac »

ssully wrote: post #106
mcguire wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" ...she had acquired, somehow, New Life Dreams, which had to do with Conspicuous Consumption and Keeping Up and being Visibly Awesome... " I was thinking the same thing: geeze, isn't there anything between virtue signalling early retirement and conspicuous consumption?

He mulls over and comes to the conclusion later in his post that he probably could have done more to save his relationship. Just based off of the sentence you quoted and other things he said, I wouldn't be surprised if he was very dismissive of his ex-wifes struggle to find meaning, or desire to go back to work. Cheating is terrible, but having a partner who doesn't try to see your struggles can be crippling.

> I wouldn't be surprised if he was very dismissive of his ex-wifes struggle to find meaning, or desire to go back to work.

What you are saying is in direct contradiction with what he says in the article:

> I encouraged her to explore her own life and find activities and goals that would help her feel better. I suggested therapy and offered to go with her. I was clear that if she wanted to go back to work I was eager to support her in this. I wanted her to do anything that might help. But my suggestions and support weren’t enough

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#174

Post by ericmay »

kelnos wrote: post #112
ericmay wrote: post #13

To me the emphasis on the FIRE community should be on the FI part of the equation. For many people in many countries, there is no concept of "retirement". It seems so silly to me that people would go and say "I'll work really hard and do all this stuff for 40 years so I can sit around and do nothing for another 30 years". What's the point? It's unsustainable. It's like doing a crash diet - it may work for a minute, b…

> Living within your means over the course of 80 years instead of balls-to-the-wall for 30-40 and then a quick and silent death for 30 seems to be a better course of action and would lead to longer lifespan. I think you have two things wrong here: 1) Most people don't plan to live "balls-to-the-wall" for 30-40 years before retiring. They work hard (maybe too hard!) so they can retire early. They don't live like kings…

Just wanted to say I read this, and thanks. Great points you’ve brought up here.

I guess I’d say I would need to specify my definition of “work” a bit more. I wouldn’t view work strictly as employment, but as productive tasks with some means to an end, but that could also include hobbies like cooking, or wood working, for example.

I would definitely challenge from a general standpoint any life where you’re not doing something productive. Not in the hustle culture sense, but in the means-to-an-end sense.

I do think we are in agreement though. Financial independence is the most important aspect here.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#175

Post by ericmay »

fuyu wrote: post #134
ericmay wrote: post #13

To me the emphasis on the FIRE community should be on the FI part of the equation. For many people in many countries, there is no concept of "retirement". It seems so silly to me that people would go and say "I'll work really hard and do all this stuff for 40 years so I can sit around and do nothing for another 30 years". What's the point? It's unsustainable. It's like doing a crash diet - it may work for a minute, b…

Wanting to spend more time doing things such and volunteering or gardening are exactly reasons why someone might pursue early retirement. It sounds like you agree with the concept but are getting distracted by terminology.

Yea or maybe the terminology itself is bad and the “RE” aspect of FIRE might need to go away. If you’re volunteering for example are you not working? What is work? Definitions definitions...

But that’s my fault. I wasn’t specific enough. :) thanks!

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#176

Post by ericd »

eric_b wrote: post #100
ericd wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh the author was writing, not doing nothing. They just didn't have to worry about whether what they were doing could generate an income.

Umm... I didn't say he was doing nothing... But to further clarify - My point was that work/income generation can add meaning and validation for lots of folks. Even the author hints at this - his writing wasn't taking off, no one was reading what he wrote, and he was getting discouraged. I dabble making music. I'm pretty good at it by hobbyist standards, but if I ever tried it "full time" no one would pay me and I'd…

You're right, I should've said he was working, just not for money. Your post seemed to be about how you enjoyed working, and how he was being condescending toward that, and that's why I mentioned that he was also working. You like running a business, he likes writing.

I thought the condescension in the author's post was more towards getting validation from buying material things and basing their sense of self-worth on that, and a criticism of that part of our culture, not so much toward the idea of people working for money in and of itself.

But that's a very fair point you make, about the need for validation, and how people get it from a job.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#177

Post by beefield »

As much as it is worthless to give advice in internet to strangers, I would advice all FIRE people to give a try of RE for a decent amount of time (say at least a year) already before FI. It is way easier to come up with money to live off for a year as opposed to the rest of your life. And frankly, I am quite sure most people do not like RE. Unless you count as RE a life where you do some kind of work that may pay less but what you really enjoy. In that case, why wait for FI and waste many years doing something you do not like? (Of course there are exceptions) And if you can't handle the risk of dropping out of your current job for a year, you may also want to seriously think if you can handle the risk of RE regardless of what your spreadsheet says, and again consider wheher you are wasting your life waiting for something you actually do not want.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#178

Post by yibg »

GordonS wrote: post #137
eagsalazar2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. But, and I think you aren't saying otherwise, this is also true of everyone who still has to work, while they are working. Your job is just the thing you have to do (if you are lucky you actually enjoy it). Bottom line, most people don't actually have a purpose or strong passions in their lives. Being retired young…

> Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. If you spend some years just chilling and and are actually happy, then sure, why not. But there are so many retired people who do nothing, and are not happy. For example, my mother, my mother and father in law, my other father in law, my grandmother - all retired, and all do absolutely nothing but watch TV and moa…

In one of Dan Gilbert’s talks he cited some research around activities and how they correlate with happiness. Unsurprisingly people like sex and socializing. But “doing nothing” turned out to be about as enjoyable as work at the bottom.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#179

Post by lupire »

ricardobayes wrote: post #142
neogodless wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Extreme frugality Were you reading FIRE blogs or extreme frugality blogs? Or maybe I can just ask "how do you define extreme frugality?" (I think of myself as kind of frugal, and planning to have the choice to avoid compulsory paid work before I'm 50, but I also live in one of the most expensive areas of the United States outside of big cities / California, with somewhat regular trips to Disney World and other coun…

Well someone spending 30k in Massachusetts living in a rental is got to be living extremely frugally. Then the woman had enough of the pennypinching. I see this so often in my circle - all the missed eating out and having fun is ultimately spent on marriage counseling and divorce lawyers.

Divorce is better than an unhappy marriage with someone who doesn't share values.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#180

Post by neogodless »

bulletwolf wrote: post #171

I've got 5 years of early retirement under my belt, and I feel like I've had the inverse experience of the OP. The first two years were an incredibly difficult transition period for me. Losing the status of being a higher up at a successful (small) company was extremely painful, especially because I didn't realize how much of a perk of the job it was. Like many others in this thread, I realized work provided a venue…

Ah, I feel this. Kind of funny (funny ha ha or funny ouch?) but on my last two projects, I was definitely riding a high of sorts. New languages/frameworks but before long, I had figured out the lay of the land and some of the quirks of these languages and felt like I was really productive, and able to help teammates with questions.

In both cases, 6-12 month long projects ended with basically being thrown in the bin. So, yeah, you can imagine any sense of purpose I may have assigned myself by being involved in these projects was an illusion. Nope - I just enjoyed getting good at something!

Then I spent six months unemployed, and spent some of that doing hobbies I enjoyed... even getting half decent at some things I've tried before. But by the end of the period, given the constraints of the pandemic, I was missing that feeling of doing something on work days that felt like accomplishment. I definitely think for anyone retiring, early or otherwise, you will have to spend a period of decompression and adjustment, either learning to accept consumption over creation, or finding new ways to create. You'll need to find a new balance, and you'll have a lot more time to do it.

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