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Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

economist.com

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Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#171

Post by P_I_Staker »

endisneigh wrote: post #2

How is it possible that girls perform better academically (in 2015) yet are under represented in the top tier of jobs? Either women have no interest in money, academic skills have no bearing in getting high paying jobs, or discrimination is more prevalent then you’d think. I suppose all three could be true.

Many of the above are true. Especially, academic skill is one of the most overrated abilities out there. You're better off with zero skill or being actively harmful, if you know how to play the game and have the right face (I don't mean literally, though sometimes that too. Do you say the right things and have the correct manners?)

I'd add that most men really don't have the opportunity to be a homemaker. So most men don't even have the option of ruining their career to take care of kids. It might be seen as "okay" for men to be stay at home dads, but I know all it's going to do is be devastating for my social status.

It's actually interesting to talk about because technically these things are true for women too, but we have a whole industry and philosophy around motherhood; it's seen as a more important role than fatherhood. I'm a guy that doesn't really care about money and it hasn't occurred to me to try being a full time father. It might be the better fit for me, but I don't see that as even an option. I'd be worried that I'd be judged as unuseful and unattractive, discarded, and left without any compensation (alimony, child support, ect.) or say in anything.

We need to be doing way more to soften the blow of parenthood for anyone. I also think we need some kind of way of honoring fatherhood, as we've done for motherhood, or to do so in a non-gendered way. It's not just about women not taking jobs that result in less pay, it's men refusing to take jobs (parenthood) that are harmful to their career, because their career is all they have.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#172

Post by endisneigh »

ameister14 wrote: post #132
endisneigh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this take a few times and I don't really buy it. How exactly is school setup in a way that's more suitable for women compared to men? Everything you've stated (following rules and instructions, etc.) also applies in the workplace, so if you were correct you would the same sort of discrepancy in the workforce.

>Everything you've stated (following rules and instructions, etc.) also applies in the workplace, so if you were correct you would the same sort of discrepancy in the workforce. That might be true if you ignored development, but we're talking about children here. A 12 year old boy is not the same as a 23 year old man.

this would be true, but these patterns still exist in college.

https://theop.princeton.edu/reports/wp/ANNALS_Conger,Long_Ma...

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#173

Post by Enginerrrd »

after_care wrote: post #144
guerrilla wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the title. That's what it means.

Grades aren’t great at measuring real learning, but it’s the best we have.

Not really. I'd argue that standardized tests are much better than grades. Particularly for any grade level below university.

At university level, the grades are more accurate (but still flawed) because the grade is typically 70-80% test and quiz based.

My experience in the US with grades for middle school and high school is that it's 85-90% non-examination based-- Meaning it's essentially a measure for how well you can complete and turn in the busy work on time.

That's a great measure for conscientiousness, but the standardized tests will show who actually learned the material.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#174

Post by Kluny »

sb52191 wrote: post #84
Kluny wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do we really expect women to have a similar behaviour of men about work, when they have a socially aceptable and now economical venue to avoid it. Baby raising is quite important work. I would argue that raising the next generation of workers, taxpayer, customers and pension fund contributors is the most important work of all.

You're completely missing the point of the person's comment... The top comment is asking why girl's perform better, and yet and under-represented in top tier jobs. The comment you replied to responds that they think it's because of having child and choosing not to go back to work. At no point are they taking a stance on whether or not raising a child is as important as working a job...

I think YOU'RE missing the point. Childcare is still considered a less important and honorable occupation than pretty much everything else you can do. If you're "just" a parent, you're not considered qualified for really anything else.

That means most men won't do it, because they'll lose status. Meanwhile women will always place lower importance on status than on childcare, and so they will do childcare because no one is available to do it for them.

The disparity won't ever disappear until it's just as valid and socially supported for a man to stay home and raise children, as for a woman.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#175

Post by filmgirlcw »

throwaway53086 wrote: post #31

Anyone with young boys and girls will notice that girls are much more likely to obey rules and instructions. A lot of doing well in school is about following rules and instructions, and it seems pretty natural that girls will do better. Also, most teachers are women. I haven't checked, but I'd assume most school administrators are women. It seems natural that they'd construct a system that's more suited for females t…

> I'd assume most school administrators are women.

At least in the United States, this isn’t at all true. A disproportionate number of administrators (especially when adjusted for the normal male/female teacher breakdown) are male.

There have also been many studies that show that teachers call on boys more, praised them more (they acknowledge girls, praise boys), and talk with them more.

So your assumptions are completely at odds with decades of data.

[1]: https://time.com/3705454/teachers-biases-girls-education/ — has good links to various research from across the world.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#176

Post by albntomat0 »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #153
endisneigh wrote: post #2

How is it possible that girls perform better academically (in 2015) yet are under represented in the top tier of jobs? Either women have no interest in money, academic skills have no bearing in getting high paying jobs, or discrimination is more prevalent then you’d think. I suppose all three could be true.

Top tier jobs need to use top tier statistics. The top 10% of male test-takers and top 6% of female test-takers score at least 700 on the math SAT. Over twice as many boys as girls get 800 on the math SAT. The ratio gets even higher beyond that. This is despite the systemic bias in the school system against boys.

That's an interesting statistic. Do you have a source? I'd be interested in learning more

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#177

Post by esja »

endisneigh wrote: post #150
esja wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great deal of teaching is built around the idea of students sitting still in one place for a long period of time, listening intently and working quietly. Boys seem to have a lot more difficulty with this (on average) than girls do. That's one example but there are plenty of others.

yes I would agree that boys have trouble with this, as that's what the featured article effectively states. however, saying that the methods themselves somehow are predisposed to benefit women is one that I'd like to see research on.

How can they not benefit women? The article is about the relative performance of men and women, and this factor reduces the performance of men.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#178

Post by dec0dedab0de »

endisneigh wrote: post #101
throwaway53086 wrote: post #31

Anyone with young boys and girls will notice that girls are much more likely to obey rules and instructions. A lot of doing well in school is about following rules and instructions, and it seems pretty natural that girls will do better. Also, most teachers are women. I haven't checked, but I'd assume most school administrators are women. It seems natural that they'd construct a system that's more suited for females t…

I've seen this take a few times and I don't really buy it. How exactly is school setup in a way that's more suitable for women compared to men? Everything you've stated (following rules and instructions, etc.) also applies in the workplace, so if you were correct you would the same sort of discrepancy in the workforce.

Everything you've stated (following rules and instructions, etc.) also applies in the workplace, so if you were correct you would the same sort of discrepancy in the workforce.

In my working life every time I brazenly break the rules and ignore instructions I end up getting a raise, or promotion. This is across 5 or 6 jobs stretched out over 23 years in small businesses, and fortune 100 companies. This is because I always back it up with results

In school, any deviation, regardless of intention or outcome, was perceived by my teachers as being disrepectful to their authority, and was quickly punished. To be fair, I went to catholic school in the 80s/early 90s, so following rules was probably a bigger emphasis than most people's experiences.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#179

Post by Dylan16807 »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #140
swebs wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that's something most humans naturally want to do, even if they have no financial incentive. Most people don't like having to go to the office 8 hours a day, and very few probably would if money wasn't in the equation.

> Sure, but that's something most humans naturally want to do, I don't know that is true of most men. Have children? Sure. Raise them? Not so sure. I once read that men wanting to have more children is inversely proportional to the amount of work the mother expects them to contribute.

If you took a bunch of women that weren't expected to be the primary caregiver, and gave them the same variety of expected hours per day spent on children, I would expect to see a similar correlation.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#180

Post by twgp123 »

Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society.

Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. The effect of biased grading is enormous and a huge disadvantage to our boys.

> Gender-biased grading accounts for 21 percent of boys falling behind girls in math during middle school. [1]

[1] https://mitili.mit.edu/sites/default/files/project-documents...

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