Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.
Definitely why I voted against it. When I first heard about it I was all for it - until I realized that the plan was to let private companies handle it. Complete no go, glad it got rejected.
Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
171–180 of 423 posts
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. In Europe you'll find the likes of Capgemini, Accenture, Cognizant, etc. hovering like flies around government IT projects.
And they keep getting awarded contracts despite their continued poor delivery. I really don't understand how their terrible track record never seems to impact their ability to win more business. I can only assume corruption, but I have no evidence of this.
This is in part because no score is ever released related to prior delivery (ie, no central assessment record), and attempts to include it get tied up in process issues (ie, rights to respond, litigation) or claims it is subjective. It also overlaps with govt agency disfunction around scope and requirements and no govt manager wants a failed project, so everyone just sweeps them under the rug and keeps moving. It is crazy though, you are literally hiring the same HORRIBLE firms over and over.
What is PARAMOUNT is that you be willing spend absolute metric tons of UNPAID time responding to RFP's, have enough money in bank to lose 4 out of 5, be willing to go through 2 year RFP processes, be willing to agree to every item on the requirements lists filled with further buzzwords and "standards". This does NOT attract high performing companies, no competent engineer would even put up with this / sit through this. So you get body shop type consulting firms, using giant java framework and other solutions, and everything is insanely siloed.
The crazy pricing is often justified because the hassle in dealing with these contracts from a contract admin overhead can absolutely DWARF actual deliverables, and nothing has to be logical (and sometimes is not).
My recommendations here would be either:
a) just pay to bring stuff in house so you get cooperation, develop open source apps and prohibit any scope creep outside of absolute minimum needed until project is in operation. EVERY freaking agency hangs 100's of new requirements they never even used before onto these projects - solutions can be undeliverable and unusable as a result, for example 40 questions PER VACINNE SHOT here in California is the height of stupidity to make these idiots feel important.
b) pay for actual use / adoption, and let there be a somewhat free market. A lot of time the users of any govt system have ZERO input. Oddly, if they let agencies find their own solutions on a smaller scale, whatever you lose in "efficiency" by not having the megaproject (hint nothing - mega projects = disaster in govt land) you would see some natural winning solutions start to bubble up. I worked with an agency with a totally fantastic contract management / invoicing system, and I kept on wondering, holy hell, they actually got it right. I started to see other agencies use it in neighboring govts - it was great - people really liked it (super easy use, allowed users to do the google, Microsoft etc login even which is unheard of) and it was fast which is also rare.
But then someone convinced the head tech folks they should stomp on everything with the new and improved people. They actually had to roll back the mega project for another year (after years of dev) because it didn't even cover a fraction of what old systems easily did.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
The banning of minarets is a data point against this liberty.
Only for people who moved there, knowing full well that they were moving into a different culture, and that as a minority they would have to adapt to local norms. I've lived in a number of countries on various continents, and I have never expected the locals to adopt my way of doing things - I think that would be utterly bizarre. If you go there without a degree of humility and willingness to adapt you're a colonist.
A simple Google search shows that the referendum passed with 57% of the voters support, so that leaves us with a 43% who thinks it's a bad idea for one reason or another. Since around 5% of Switzerland is muslim, one could argue building minarets is not such a scandalous idea for Swiss voters.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Notably the US has no right to privacy, except a very vague implied right which as far as I know has only been invoked in the context of abortion.
4th amendment to the constitution? > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
The SVP is a very strong party in Switzerland. It is not a stretch to call it xenophobic. Switzerland - like any place - has many faces. It hosts great institutions but yes, it also has its share of societal xenophobia.
> The SVP is a very strong party in Switzerland. It is not a stretch to call it xenophobic. It is for anyone outside of Twitter and I say this as an immigrant but the extent to which people use the word “xenophobic” is ridiculous.
Here's an article from 2000 about the referendum on the migrant quota. You can read about the SVP's initiative and reaction here: https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/18-prozent-initiative-deutlich-...
Here's another article from 2000 comparing different right-wing parties in Western Europe (including the SVP) and also mentioning xenophobia as part of their make-up: https://monde-diplomatique.de/artikel/!1243322
Here's an article from 2002 about then SVP-president Oskar Freysinger and his infamous poetry. Please read what he wrote and explain how it's not xenophobic: https://www.nzz.ch/article8J5AD-1.443107
Here's an article from 1999 about a thank-you letter written by SVP-cantonal president Christoph Blocher to the holocaust-denier Jürgen Graf: https://www.bielertagblatt.ch/nachrichten/vermischtes/kontro...
It really doesn't take a lot of digging to understand what the SVP stands for. I mean today their initiative for a ban on burqas/niqab went through with 52% of the vote despite there only being around 20-30 burqa/niqab wearers in all of Switzerland.
I often do see this take that whatever Twitter might currently be mad at is supposedly a hysterical view on things, yet it seems this automatic opposite view is never seen for the hyperbole it is.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm thinking of buying a condemned, uninhabitable house in a tax foreclosure auction simply so I can list it as my residential address. Most places that demand a utility bill will accept a property tax bill, so it doesn't even have to have working water/power (the cheapest doomshacks have both shut off). You'd be surprised how cheap some of these places are. But it does have to show up as "residential" in the USPS da…
Jameson Lopp had spent tens of thousands of dollars or more on lawyers to make his life untracable after the CIA got into his house, and he shared a lot of what he did.
I'm aware that he's been the target of at least one mugging attempt, and I think he even maintains a list of people who were robbed as a result of being high-profile early adopters of bitcoin.
But the CIA? Are you sure aliens weren't involved?
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm thinking of buying a condemned, uninhabitable house in a tax foreclosure auction simply so I can list it as my residential address. Most places that demand a utility bill will accept a property tax bill, so it doesn't even have to have working water/power (the cheapest doomshacks have both shut off). You'd be surprised how cheap some of these places are. But it does have to show up as "residential" in the USPS da…
My best solution right now is a UPS box, which gives you a proper street address. Most places that ask for utility bills will accept a phone bill or insurance bill or some such which you can have arranged to be sent to that address. I'd be interested to know if there are similar services that are cheaper and ideally less well-known than UPS but equally reliable. Delivery to my real address with the ability to trust t…
USPS maintains a very immaculately curated list of CMRAs (Commercial Mail Receiving Agents). It's not hard because they need to register with USPS in order to receive mail on behalf of customers who pay them for mail-receiving service. USPS is allowed to deny them mail delivery if they refuse to register, and does.
Every place that wants to know your residential address, and insists that it is actually residential, checks the address you provide against this list.
Side note: I knew a woman who bought a storefront that had previously been a mailboxes-etc type place. It was a complete nightmare for her, none of the banks or insurers or credit card companies would believe that was her business' physical address because it was on that list. Apparently it takes 1-2 years to fall off the list. Eventually she had to switch to a small local bank and have the bank manager come to physically inspect the location so they could override the databroker software.
> renting a cheap studio somewhere
That's an ongoing recurring cost. Also nobody will rent a place unless it's (somewhat) inhabitable; buying an uninhabitable toxic dump is actually cheaper than renting anything that can be advertised as inhabitable.
Last of all, I am completely fed up with landlords insisting on credit checks. The data brokers exploit this like you wouldn't believe. That's why they have such perfectly accurate residential addresses for all renters.
> peace-of-mind than dealing with property taxes, crime, pests,
Property taxes are beyond easy. You don't even need to receieve the bill! The amount you owe is a matter of public record, and on the web in almost every jurisdiction. Once a year: look it up, buy a postal money order with cash, write the parcel number on it, mail it, done. Property taxes are also based on the value of the property, so for a toxic dump the taxes are tiny.
Crime and pests don't matter if you don't visit the location. Take the mailbox off the front of the house after closing so no mail can be delivered there by accident.
Definitely buy it through an LLC so that long-tail events (it burns down taking the neighbor's house with it, kids break in and injure themselves, etc) don't come back to you.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. The current American system based on bits of paper you have to remember about, or insecure ID numbers used as identification (SSN) just causes a lot of pain, imo. Having a central ID for each citizen at birth, and then a way to prove that you match that ID would make so many services much more secure and convenient. (Obtaining DL, getting loans, bank accounts, name changes, tax, etc) I agree there should be s…
This only gives more power to government to harass people whom they don't like and who are poor minorities. > having a central ID for each citizen at birth, and then a way to prove that you match that ID This seems a trivial and no-brainer and yet you will be surprised how many Americans will be simply denied this sort of service after birth. Racist law makers would put severe restrictions on people they dont like. I…
The whole "centralized ID means your government will oppress minorities" narrative seems like a mostly american concept.
I imagine part of it is due with the US's particularly bad history with minorities, and part of it is a general defiance against any kind of centralization that also seems kind of unique to american culture.
Speaking as someone living in a country (France) that has had centralized ID for decades, it feels really weird to see people describing what a dystopian future American would become if it did that thing we do right now.
(and yes, ID card checks are used as an excuse for racial profiling; and the lack of an ID card is used to track down undocumented immigrants, and that's bad; but it's a symptom of other problems, and it's nowhere as bad as "centralized = black people are denied access to social services")
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are , who shares their household and so on. Almost…
I guess I only shop with stores that use Kivra. BankID doesn't store any information, and I have no problem that the stores I'm a member in store my shipping history. I think you are overstating the scale of the surveillance. I don't think the different entities share data with each other. Edit: try live in a country like Switzerland once you have gotten use to all interaction being online. It's horrible. Edit2: actu…
I work with systems that use BankID identification, and know for a fact that you are wrong, because many (though not all) of the data-points collected by the banks can be retrieved for payment.
For instance, if you just logged-in with the service I work with, I can retrieve your full-name, birthdate, your marital status, name of your spouse, their birthdate, any children and their IDs and names, where you live, your home and cellphone number, and many many other data points.
From a service owned by a small group of private banks.
Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies
#180"... almost no government has the IT capacity and resources to single-handedly develop an eID quickly and to the appropriate standards." Bullshit. We're talking identity management here. Any government that can't handle that internally doesn't deserve to exist. What that's really about is feathering the nests of tech industry donors (and/or the non-tech middlemen or middlewomen who seem to grow like weeds around the…
Belgium has been doing digital identities for years now, we had our first identity cards with chip and digital signature I think 15 years ago? I frequently use it to sign documents and login to some government stuff. So if Belgium, which didn't have a government 3 out of the last 10 years, can do it, surely Switzerland can do it too.