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Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#171

Post by maldini94 »

dmichulke wrote: post #156

“This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know. Pretty good.” - T. Prat…

This reminds me of the Greek paradox "Ship of Theseus" which asks the question if every part of a ship is reconstructed over time is it the same ship?

If any subset of the new ship is a subset of the original ship then surely. But this also raises the question if we take a subset and build a new ship. Which is the original?

Another interesting take is to introduce non-physical attributes such as a name of the ship. That way every piece of wood could be changed but the name attribute would still make it a subset

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#172

Post by Gupie »

tsimionescu wrote: post #136
Gupie wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no known process in physics that could give meaning to that identity. I am arguing that we don't know enough about consciousness or about the universe to claim there is no difference between the original and the copy. So saying "there is no known process in physics" doesn't undermine my position. Here is one possibility, perhaps a bit silly, but if we are in a simulated universe, not that I think this is l…

Sure, there is always the possibility of new physics being discovered. But we know A LOT about the universe, and the fact that we can explain so much about how things work, from the atomic to the galactic level, without any kind of a time-stable identity being necessary does suggest that we shouldn't hold our breath hoping for one to be discovered. Also note, a hash or a mind in a higher-level universe is exactly a t…

Yes, we know a lot, but we don't understand consciousness or even why the universe exists at all. You are probably right, there is unlikely to be a necessity for a "time-stable identity". But who knows, as Lord Kelvin said 1901 “there is nothing new to be discovered in physics now"!

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#173

Post by swayvil »

keiferski wrote: post #52

The fact that this is uncontroversial to a lot of people mostly just shows how intellect-focused our society has become. Plenty of other value systems treat the Self as the entire body, not merely the head. Perhaps if we did too, we might not have so many issues with obesity and drug abuse. Dualism has consequences. I once read someone describe academics as “floating heads with bodies attached.” I think that could ap…

The mass of communication (everybody talking to everybody. Media, social and otherwise) has become very self-referential. We have conversations about conversations and arguments about arguments. And the stronger argument does not refer to mere "observation" or "anecdote". No, it refers to a more authoritative argument. Be it a revered pundit or that-which-is-popular.

Thus the communicating, arguing culture becomes even more self-referential as time goes on. And all that does not concern talking, thinking and arguing gets forgotten.

And that forgotten part is 99.999% of reality.

The act of focusing attention, which is also, implicitly, an act of vast ignoring, is a fascinating phenomenon.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#174

Post by esperent »

the8472 wrote: post #70
esperent wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> brain is part where memories etc live? As far as we know. But we really know so little and there's a lot of interesting work being done regarding the networks of nerves in other parts of the body. It's extremely likely that the brain is where most of the memories are stored, things like your name and age and so on. It could turn out that a lot of other types of memory, like muscle memory or emotional memory, are mo…

> muscle memory That's in the cerebellum, part of your brain, not in your muscles. The state that your muscles remember is mostly the amount and composition of muscle fibers, i.e. how strong and fast they are due to exercise.

I didn't mean literally in the muscles, although I should have been clearer. I meant probably in the gut or another area with large nerve clusters. That said, it's unlikely - and for sure, the cerebellum is the likely candidate. But it's not simple and we don't understand it will enough to make any definite claims yet. We'll need to actually do the transplants to find out.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#175

Post by hateful »

maldini94 wrote: post #171
dmichulke wrote: post #156

“This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know. Pretty good.” - T. Prat…

This reminds me of the Greek paradox "Ship of Theseus" which asks the question if every part of a ship is reconstructed over time is it the same ship? If any subset of the new ship is a subset of the original ship then surely. But this also raises the question if we take a subset and build a new ship. Which is the original? Another interesting take is to introduce non-physical attributes such as a name of the ship. T…

If you copy a file to a another drive, is it the same file?

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#176

Post by tsimionescu »

ImprobableTruth wrote: post #169
tsimionescu wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you, I would add that most glands add a wrinkle to what you are saying. Hormones significantly impact personality and reactions, and their secretion is not happening in the brain. Now, the direction of causation is of course debatable, especially in a healthy person, but do you believe that replacing ovaries with testicles (assuming we were able to do it) would have no impact on the mind of the per…

While the secretion may not happen in the brain, they affect the hormone receptors in the brain and that's where I think all the 'mind' changes come from. We know that e.g. people who undergo hormone replacement as part of sex reassignment will actually have noticeable brain structure changes. If there was some other influence causing changes to the mind, I don't know of it. It doesn't seem like the hormone creating…

Well, if some other organ can influence the mind, and if it is not under the direct control of the mind, in what sense can you say it is separate from the mind?

Or, staying closer to measurable things, glands mean that you should expect the personality of a brain being getting a full body transplant can become significantly different, just because of all the new hormone glands they will be exposed to. So in some sense, you are not moving a person to a new body, but creating a new person that will inherit many characteristics from the brain donor (memories, for sure, probably others), and many other characteristics from the body donor (personality traits, such as aggression or how sedentary they may be, very likely some dietary preferences).

Edit: clarified first sentence.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#177

Post by d_tr »

keiferski wrote: post #52

The fact that this is uncontroversial to a lot of people mostly just shows how intellect-focused our society has become. Plenty of other value systems treat the Self as the entire body, not merely the head. Perhaps if we did too, we might not have so many issues with obesity and drug abuse. Dualism has consequences. I once read someone describe academics as “floating heads with bodies attached.” I think that could ap…

Maybe these people (I am one of them) just do not have a reason to object to a consensual procedure that could save or drastically improve lives, and that's it?

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#178

Post by libraryatnight »

keiferski wrote: post #52

The fact that this is uncontroversial to a lot of people mostly just shows how intellect-focused our society has become. Plenty of other value systems treat the Self as the entire body, not merely the head. Perhaps if we did too, we might not have so many issues with obesity and drug abuse. Dualism has consequences. I once read someone describe academics as “floating heads with bodies attached.” I think that could ap…

Christopher Hitchens in Mortality describes his illness as making him become aware that he doesn't occupy a body, he IS a body.

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#179

Post by ddingus »

hateful wrote: post #175
maldini94 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the Greek paradox "Ship of Theseus" which asks the question if every part of a ship is reconstructed over time is it the same ship? If any subset of the new ship is a subset of the original ship then surely. But this also raises the question if we take a subset and build a new ship. Which is the original? Another interesting take is to introduce non-physical attributes such as a name of the ship. T…

If you copy a file to a another drive, is it the same file?

There may be only one electron--> Feynman

Re: Transplant an organ? Why not an entire body?

#180

Post by f6v »

anoncow wrote: post #164
f6v wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d need to manufacture bodies first, since the ones we have aren’t supposed to work beyond 80-90 years, on average.

If memories and by extension consciousness can be transplanted, will mushy bodies matter? We already have capabilities to manufacture robots.

Ability to experience pleasure matters. Among other things, our brains evolved to receive and process vast amounts of sensory inputs.
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