Bitcoin Is Time • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#171

Post by cyphertruck » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #137

olah_1 wrote: post #69

This is the article that made things finally click with me. Thinking about the pre-WWI gold standard and the issues that existed there and the improvements that Bitcoin brings around time, consensus, etc. The baseless negative comments with no interaction with the article content confirms for me that Bitcoin is on to something. Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think.

I recently decided to think deeply about Bitcoin and I think my initial skepticism about Bitcoin was wrong. Most of the criticisms of Bitcoin are centered around the fact that Bitcoin has a very low throughput. However this is not necessarily a problem. And here is one hypothetical example of how we can overcome this issue: When countries owe each other money they used to transfer gold back and forth or trust someone…

In Bitcoin, the “local currency” equivalent to your “MyDogeCoin” example is called The lightning network.

Simplifying a bit to support your analogy:

Bitcoin lets you lock coins on the chain for a certain amount of time. Two people can do this, then trade bitcoin transactions back and forth without submitting them.

For example, I lock coins and give my coworker a bitcoin transaction I have signed giving him $10 worth of bitcoin for my share of the days lunch. Next day he fives me one for $13 for his share, and I give the restaurant $43 for the bill— all these transactions are literally trading bitcoin IOUs, but in a nearly trustless way.

This means a great deal of transactions can happen off chain without the risk of theft.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#172

Post by capableweb » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

SkipperCat wrote: post #68

Bitcoin is only popular because tech workers get paid a lot and have the ability to speculate, we live in a world of massive asset bubbles created by government fiscal policies and Bitcoin is excellent for buying drugs on-line. Most people want security in their assets, which is why a majority of folks read articles about bitcoin but never touch one. All of these articles are great examples of creative writing. I do…

> Bitcoin is excellent for buying drugs on-line.

Out of all cryptocurrencies that exist today, Bitcoin is probably the worst one for buying drugs online. It's pseudo-anonymous at best (compared to Zcash that is actually anonymous), slower than many others and if government agencies have tracking tools in the cryptocurrency space, Bitcoin is probably the most popular target for those tools.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#173

Post by Erlich_Bachman » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

bearerofgarbage wrote: post #96

gillesjacobs wrote: post #95

Proof-of-history using verifiable delay functions (VDF) is a valid consensus mechanism that scales of PoS and PoW networks [1]. Solana is build on top of it and it looks very promising as a fast consensus mechanism. OP pretty much explains the intuition behind why history as a sequence of events in a blockchain works, but Bitcoin PoW is different from PoH as maintaining order is the main work done and not a side-effe…

what problem of value does it solve? every post including cryptocoin here gets a generic comment like yours about some other cryptocoin that is 'very promising'

Maybe try reading the post again? I have no affiliation or even opinion about that coin, but it is painfully clear for that post only that the proposed problem of value is

"valid consensus mechanism that scales of PoS and PoW networks".

Half of the comments on this page complain about how Bitcoin uses too much energy and how PoW is wasteful. This is a direct (allegedly, if what they write is correct) solution to exactly that.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#174

Post by ben_w » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #144

ben_w wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the argument, I would ask in response: if it could do that, why would the combined vested interests of the US military-industrial lot allow Bitcoin to succeed ? It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade, and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic.

One possible reason is that by the time they realize it's a threat, it will be too late.

Given what governments worldwide have done with currencies in the past, I think you’re underestimating their capacity and how much they care about the functioning of their currency.

If you’ll excuse my admittedly also-naïve wargaming of their responses:

“Dear ISPs, this is the government. That stuff you do to block piracy and illegal porn? Do that for bitcoin.”

“Dear Banks, this is the government. Purchase of bitcoin is now a federal offence. Tell us if anyone tries to exchange them for money.”

“Dear The Power Company, this is a government order. Turn off power to these properties who are engaged in illegal Bitcoin mining.”

“Dear everyone, this is the government. Your taxes can only be paid in dollars, not in bitcoin.”

(Not that I would say such things will never happen, only that I expect America to become irrelevant on the world stage before it happens; and even in the most extreme USSR-mimicking scenario that is not something I expect before 2041).

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#175

Post by phyro » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

eigenvalue wrote: post #88

phyro wrote: post #9

Thank you for sharing this! I wrote a much shorter article on why I believe Grin is the closest to "time is money" here https://phyro.github.io/what-is-grin/grin_emission.html Bitcoin can be thought of as a clock, but the unit that is being transfered can't be thought as time because for it to be mappable to time, you need a linear function and Bitcoin's emission is exponential because of the halvings.

It’s about the number of blocks though, not the amount of the mining block reward. I think you are conflating two different things.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Indeed, there are two different things. First is the linearity of blocks and the second is the linearity of the emission of units with which we transact. Bitcoin has the former, but does not have the latter. You can't unambiguously say "I'm going to buy an hour of Bitcoin" because this hour depends on _when_ you plan on buying them - the emission over any time interval (including one hour) changes over time due to the halvings. This is why I think coins with a constant emission (especially Grin where 1 coin is emitted every second) can bring to life the saying "time is money" because money becomes time. There is no difference between calling your 100 Grins "100 Seconds" and buying an hour of Grin. So yes, you're correct that the article talks about the "block time", but I think this can be pushed further where you not only have a global clock for events, but your unit of money is time itself.

P.S. I prefer thinking of a blockchain as a "drunk" clock, because of the variance that comes with the finding of a valid PoW. It might sway a bit left and right, but it mostly goes in the straight line in the end.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#176

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #137

olah_1 wrote: post #69

This is the article that made things finally click with me. Thinking about the pre-WWI gold standard and the issues that existed there and the improvements that Bitcoin brings around time, consensus, etc. The baseless negative comments with no interaction with the article content confirms for me that Bitcoin is on to something. Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think.

I recently decided to think deeply about Bitcoin and I think my initial skepticism about Bitcoin was wrong. Most of the criticisms of Bitcoin are centered around the fact that Bitcoin has a very low throughput. However this is not necessarily a problem. And here is one hypothetical example of how we can overcome this issue: When countries owe each other money they used to transfer gold back and forth or trust someone…

That's all fine, but the argument isn't that BTC has some use case. The argument is that BTC has some use case that is so valuable that the combined value of all BTC should be in the tens or hundreds of trillions of dollars.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#177

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #173

bearerofgarbage wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what problem of value does it solve? every post including cryptocoin here gets a generic comment like yours about some other cryptocoin that is 'very promising'

Maybe try reading the post again? I have no affiliation or even opinion about that coin, but it is painfully clear for that post only that the proposed problem of value is "valid consensus mechanism that scales of PoS and PoW networks". Half of the comments on this page complain about how Bitcoin uses too much energy and how PoW is wasteful. This is a direct (allegedly, if what they write is correct) solution to exac…

I honestly don't think that either BitCoin or CryptoCurrency in general _can_ be reformed. The whole mess is a complete write-off.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#178

Post by jakeva » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #164

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have ahem lost more than enough time on articles about Bitcoin, and its tiresome wide-eyed fanatics. The comments are bad enough.

And yet you found time to litter internet with you telling other people that you won't spend even little time understanding the topic at hand or posting something produced by your own thinking... That's even worse than creatively criticising the topic, that's just meaningless jibberjabber. PS let me rephrase my point: you write "I have ahem lost more than enough time on articles about Bitcoin, and its tiresome wide-e…

I assume comments like that are from people who are conflicted by the fact that if their head weren't so far up their ass they would have entertained the notion enough to at least acquire a few bitcoin, but because it's now too late it's better to celebrate just how far up their ass their head is.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#179

Post by almost_usual » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #144

ben_w wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the argument, I would ask in response: if it could do that, why would the combined vested interests of the US military-industrial lot allow Bitcoin to succeed ? It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade, and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic.

One possible reason is that by the time they realize it's a threat, it will be too late.

Too late to what? Forcefully distribute it as it sees fit or else put you in prison or harm your family? If you keep using it in secret it will never be mainstream.

Physical force is the strongest currency on Earth. Arguing it’s not is arguing millions of people die for entertainment rather than shifts of power.

If Bitcoin is the revolutionary future millions will die on that hill to make it so.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#180

Post by Geee » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #137

olah_1 wrote: post #69

This is the article that made things finally click with me. Thinking about the pre-WWI gold standard and the issues that existed there and the improvements that Bitcoin brings around time, consensus, etc. The baseless negative comments with no interaction with the article content confirms for me that Bitcoin is on to something. Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think.

I recently decided to think deeply about Bitcoin and I think my initial skepticism about Bitcoin was wrong. Most of the criticisms of Bitcoin are centered around the fact that Bitcoin has a very low throughput. However this is not necessarily a problem. And here is one hypothetical example of how we can overcome this issue: When countries owe each other money they used to transfer gold back and forth or trust someone…

There are also trustless ways to do that. Bitcoin's Lightning Network does exactly this in trustless way, and it's feeless, instant and private. Every "Lightning bitcoin" is cryptographically backed by real bitcoin. In the end, all transactions are settled on the Bitcoin main chain.

Then there are centralized credit networks backed by Bitcoin. Paypal and Visa (with a custodian / bank) already provide this, in combination with a seamless exchange to local currency that is accepted by the merchant. For custodians, it's possible to algorithmically prove reserves, so that every user can verify that their "bitcoin IOU" is backed by actual bitcoin, but no one currently provides this afaik.