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Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

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Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tbh i read it more as yet another example of a platform trying to restrict the rigths of its customers to do every other aspect of their business in the way they choose. I take your point - and its probably true. BUT when I use what is essentially a glorified website builder to build a site they don't get to tell me who i can put my money through or dictate anything about how i run my business beyond hosting and the…

I hear your generic complaint about platforms but in this case the Merchant and actually customers (not third party developer) are the people who should be protected. Partners (third party developers) should have access to provide Merchants much needed services and get paid for that but as I see it Shopify has to regulate what those Partners are doing so that neither their Merchants or Customers are getting taken adv…

> Partners (third party developers) should have access to provide Merchants much needed services and get paid for that but as I see it Shopify has to regulate what those Partners are doing so that neither their Merchants or Customers are getting taken advantage of. (I.E. avoid any kind of fallout similar to facebooks cambridge analytics level or fraudulent payments).

People were building complements and addons to pro software long before the whole plateform and app stores fad took hold. The whole thing is pretty much a naked cash grab from publishers and the whole "plateform" strategy which has been so dear to management consultants for the last decade is just another world for artificial barriers to entry but entraving competitions doesn't sound as good as building a plateform.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Orwell had a thing or two to say about this in 1984. It's incredibly common in party politics. If you are the party that always criticize something, nobody will believe that you are doing it. So, if you plan on doing something, you accuse our largest opositor of doing it, loudly and repeatedly.

Indeed, like fighting systemic racism with systemic racism.

Actually, that's one of the more reasonable strategies of this form. What would you have done to reduce the harm of that problem?

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#173
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shopify . I agree with the case being different to Apple. And not sure why it is hypocritical. Not to mention Shopify holds no clear monopoly over e-commerce. Unless people want to argue the Shopify has a monopoly on Shopify App Store.

And Apple has no monopoly over cellphones... it's the exact same thing. If you are a Shopify customer, there's only 1 AppStore.

In US, one could argue Apple has a monopolistic position on Smartphone. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#174
post #12

Not a surprising practice, but: > Pretty ironic too when you've got Shopify's CEO tweeting about the unfair 30% cut Apple wants: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1362411841943711744 That's pretty hypocritical

I have noticed a pattern these days - people publicly criticise certain behaviours and then they do exactly what they criticise. They think that majority of people won't actually verify that and such message will embed a positive impression about that person. Then you have people rather lie to themselves rather than accept that they were wrong, so if they later find out that those people actually were doing what they…

Everyone thinks they’re different. This other person’s bad behavior is a pattern, but my own is one time things. I’m certain I have my facts right about their behavior from skimming these articles/internet comments, but they are wrong about what I’m doing because they’re too lazy to do their own research. They don’t deserve it, but I do. They’re doing it in bad faith, but I’m not. Their behavior is inexcusable, but you’re missing context to understand mine. Or my favorite: their ends (which I don't understand) don’t justify their means, but mine do.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) Apple is effectively a monopoly, much more so than shopify I’m just curious, by which metric?

Apple has > 60% market share in the US [1]. 60% is considered by courts to be a barrier to entry for new competitors [2] [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... [2] https://www.nber.org/system/files/chapters/c10784/c10784.pdf : "60% is a favorite threshold for the courts"

All the search results for iOS US market share give such wildly different answers, from 15% to 65%. I wonder what the deal is.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#177

If I understand this correctly: this OP partner app (not merchant/store) has been evading the Rev Share agreement with Shopify and is complaining because they got caught and are having to pay back their due? And then they are trying to jump on the furor of Apples 30% rev share agreement to get support from other developers - when the cases are completely different? To me it sounds like this App developer is trying to…

tbh i read it more as yet another example of a platform trying to restrict the rigths of its customers to do every other aspect of their business in the way they choose. I take your point - and its probably true. BUT when I use what is essentially a glorified website builder to build a site they don't get to tell me who i can put my money through or dictate anything about how i run my business beyond hosting and the…

> when I use what is essentially a glorified website builder to build a site they don't get to tell me who i can put my money through or dictate anything about how i run my business beyond hosting and the builder.

Actually, they do if it is in the contract.

The problem with Apple's 30% cut is they are a gatekeeper any business operating on the iPhone and they are using this market power in a oligopolistic fashion (the other player being Google) to engage in rentseeking behavior. There are no alternatives to the Apple app store when it comes to iOS by Apple's design, so they are stifling competition.

In contrast, there are plenty of competitors to Shopify AND Shopify is not using some forced barrier to entry to prevent competition. For example, Amazon being the place of discovery for goods means that Amazon's network effect of being the marketplace where everyone goes to look for any good gives them market power and is a barrier to entry. In contrast, Shopify is not about a marketplace. Each store appears as its own website from the consumers' perspective. Thus, a business can switch to a different e-commerce platform and not be hurt by some market power derived situation.

Thus, it is totally legitimate for Shopify to make such a demand of all customers must use their billing. Their business model is give away X for free (e-commerce website tech) and make money on billing. So long as they aren't engaged in some monopolistic/oligopolistic practice, then they can structure their terms however they please because it isn't causing a market failure and enabling rentseeking.

In the Apple and Google case, 30% would be totally fine if there were alternative app stores, a low barrier to entry to finding those app stores, or the ability to find and install applications from anywhere (again with an easy discovery mechanism for finding those apps).

The counter often made to not allowing other app stores on iOS or installing apps from anywhere is the security risk and potential harm to the consumer. While valid, I think this is disingenuous by Apple. There could be ways to enforce comparable security standards in a more open (not totally open), but more open ecosystem.

Here are some contrived examples: - Properly limited OS APIs to prevent overly broad usage by any app. For example, the move from asking for generic location access to having to specifically ask for background location access vs only while the app is in use. - Then to manage signing permissions, Apple could grant other app stores a new kind signing permissions coupled with a contractual requirement to ensure apps abide by certain security standards (which Apple claims they abide by). This could have stiff penalties, paid by the other app store to a consumer fund similarly to how in an ideal world data breaches should have financial consequences and consumer renumeration.

EDIT: Upon inspection, I realize this 20% by Shopify is for their app marketplace. In that regard, it is more similar to the Amazon example I gave above. I still don't think this is as problematic or comparable to iOS App store as there are tons of alternatives to Shopify and their market power is more limited. Nonetheless, their behavior here is more problematic as it is one of exercising market power to undermine competition in a space that they are becoming increasingly dominant. Thus, it could approach the Amazon situation soon enough. That being said, neither their app marketplace or Amazon's marketplace are anywhere near the true monopolistic behavior that is Apple and Google with their app store pricing. Amazon, for example, is a website where I can easily search different e-commerce websites. There is a much lower switching cost to Amazon on a per purchase basis (I recently bought directly from Home Depot for a bunch of things instead of Amazon). There are no alternatives to the iOS app store if you have an iPhone.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#178
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear your generic complaint about platforms but in this case the Merchant and actually customers (not third party developer) are the people who should be protected. Partners (third party developers) should have access to provide Merchants much needed services and get paid for that but as I see it Shopify has to regulate what those Partners are doing so that neither their Merchants or Customers are getting taken adv…

> Partners (third party developers) should have access to provide Merchants much needed services and get paid for that but as I see it Shopify has to regulate what those Partners are doing so that neither their Merchants or Customers are getting taken advantage of. (I.E. avoid any kind of fallout similar to facebooks cambridge analytics level or fraudulent payments). People were building complements and addons to pro…

I don't disagree with the building complements and addons forever - no one is arguing that. I would say that the difference between building an application for one company vs building for a platform has some pretty distinct differences.

I think in this instance if you are building for large swaths of a population (ie. merchants) and the brand reputation (Shopify) is at risk of a bad actor (i.e. in Facebooks case cambridge analytics) it is in the interests of the brand (ie Shopify) to manage risk from bad actors.

This may be a cash grab, I don't know the true details only the comments from the aggrieved developer. Though reading the aggrieved comments they seem to have been playing by their own rules and got caught.

If the argument you are trying to make is upstream of that in that the layout of the internet is no longer favor of individual developers - thats a bigger debate that I don't think we can address here. It's a market structure argument in its essence.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#179
post #80

You have to use Shopify Billing for shops that installed your app through app store, but you can have Stripe for apps that installed your app directly through your site for example, that's how business I'm working for is doing. Basically if you want Shopify App Store customers, you have to give 20% to Shopify, but you still have option of acquiring users yourself through your site without app store. Is it fair? Maybe…

Why compare users who may or may not use Shopify’s app store with people who definitely use apple? People don’t have the choice to use the apple App Store without paying the 30% cut, but they have the choice to not use apple. People don’t have the choice to use the Shopify App Store without paying the 20% cut, but they have the choice to not use Shopify.

Also, I just bought an audiobook last night on my iphone through the browser, and presumably apple didn’t get a cut. I think Shopify’s cut and apple’s cut are fair analogies here.

Re: Shopify says remove Stripe billing or get booted from their app store

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) Apple is effectively a monopoly, much more so than shopify I’m just curious, by which metric?

Apple has > 60% market share in the US [1]. 60% is considered by courts to be a barrier to entry for new competitors [2] [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... [2] https://www.nber.org/system/files/chapters/c10784/c10784.pdf : "60% is a favorite threshold for the courts"

Thanks!
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