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Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

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Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#171

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #106
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

The politicians and toothlessness of the regulatory agencies is a direct result of the electorate. The electorate likes these sorts of outcomes, and any politician that goes against them will find themselves either primaried or drummed out of office.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#172

Post by handoflixue »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #143
Draiken wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say that sounds exactly how this kind of software should be built. We're not talking about the newest social media hype. This software actually matters. Specially since today most of these bureaucratic processes can't be done without these softwares.

>I have to say that sounds exactly how this kind of software should be built. You see this in every topic. Every "muh pride in muh trade" person says something like this about the relevant trade but the fact of the matter is that the world runs on off-brand duct tape, harbor freight tools, walmart jeans, economy tires, and all sorts of other "value" solutions and the race to the bottom is what has given us much of th…

We don't say "perfection is impossible" when it comes to bridges collapsing. We understand that yes, on rare occasion a bridge WILL collapse, but we go and find the people responsible, and we still hold them accountable.

This is a level of accountability that basically every other field of engineering is held to, and they've all risen to the challenge and left the "off-brand duct tape" behind.

Even within programming, planes don't fall out of the sky daily, so I feel safe assume the aerospace programmers are comfortable working with a high degree of responsibility. High speed traders are dealing with million-dollar stakes and a single mistake can make the news. I'd expect they've got a very accountable culture where people get fired when that happens.

There are costs, yes, but there's also costs to keep 733 people illegally imprisoned - we're talking two man-years of peoples lives lost every DAY this goes on.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#173

Post by spaetzleesser »

indymike wrote: post #96
mattmcknight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped this in a comment elsewhere in this discussion, but also makes sense here... I find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucrati…

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

That’s as insightful as people saying “ just follow the constitution” when in reality people have been fighting about the exact meaning for centuries. Most laws leave some room for interpretation. This is pretty much necessary because the law can’t specify each corner case.

Same goes for software requirements. Good requirements make the intent clear but allow implementers some flexibility. Specifying everything in minute detail is usually a recipe for disaster.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#174

Post by trhway »

>Software Bug Keeping Hundreds of Inmates in Arizona Prisons Beyond Release Dates

language as the key as usual, it builds mental model different from reality and sets the discussion context obscuring the real issue and already skewed toward the angle the speaker wants - "software bug keeping". It isn't software who keeps the inmates, it is the people employed in that branch of government, and ultimately it is "we, the people". Blaming "computer" is as old an excuse as the pyramids as we still fall for it. Even more today i think.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#175

Post by daniel-thompson »

mattmcknight wrote: post #56
opportune wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I think custom software contracting and vendorization is a “noob-trap”. Software needs to be updated and maintained and you never know when you start writing it what the real requirements are. If I were a taxpayer in this state I’d be angry that my money would be going to a series of middlemen (e.g. a procurement consultant, program manager on the gov side, a contractor manager, the contracting company’s…

Unfortunately the pay scale for state software developers never (I almost never say never) has a proper differential over other employees with the same level of experience, meaning they are often below 10th percentile of market rate, and thus the employees that end up in those jobs tend to be among the least skilled and motivated people I've ever dealt with. Even though contractors mess up, you can fire them. What's…

> the employees that end up in those jobs tend to be among the least skilled and motivated

This. The job itself is terrible and as you mention the pay is terrible too. With conditions like that, I'm not surprised the product is buggy, over-budget, and difficult to improve.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#176

Post by P_I_Staker »

pm90 wrote: post #73
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

Software is just a tool, it can be used to build good or bad things. It would be hard to see this in e.g. Scandinavian countries, where incarceration is seen as rehabilitative rather than punitive. In the US, racial discrimination, free market extremism along with "tough on crime" laws have created unimaginably cruel systems; together with private prisons, the goal has been on cutting costs rather than rehabilitating…

Is rehabilitation not the main goal in the USA? We call the places correctional facilities, and do other things that are ostensibly there to correct behavior and prevent recidivism. In fact, it seems like most of the things that prevent people from being successful are unintended side effects.

Here's a thought: Why do we permit private companies to not hire ex-cons? Why do you just get to decide that you don't want to hold up your civic responsibilities like that? Who wants to work with someone that used to be violent maniac, sleazy thief, or worse?

I agree about cost cutting measures and the criminal justice industrial complex. Still we have bigger issues around crime and reconciliation that prevent us from making progress. To be honest, I have trouble understanding how we're going to change, unless the average person can live with someone ruining their life, then spending "only" a year or so in prison and moving on to be successful in a decent paying job.

We still find that outrageous in the US, and it's going to be very tough to make progress that way. It's not about making something "a goal", especially in a country like the US, it's about convincing the wealthy and powerful class to do anything at all about it and stop making it worse.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#178

Post by aksss »

tp3 wrote: post #71
mattmcknight wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the pay scale for state software developers never (I almost never say never) has a proper differential over other employees with the same level of experience, meaning they are often below 10th percentile of market rate, and thus the employees that end up in those jobs tend to be among the least skilled and motivated people I've ever dealt with. Even though contractors mess up, you can fire them. What's…

If you're planning on breaking out of a certain contract-type or the other will be even more ridiculous, then consider putting out a separate RFP or having some special setup that allows you to just bypass or do the RFP at a higher rate. I'd recommend putting out an RFP for every project that needs it, even though it's a small number of the projects you're doing, and use that for the next project so the future RFPs w…

Having worked with a lot of contracted firms that do custom software development and platform customization, let’s not put them too high on a pedestal. What money you save on FTE programmers needs to be funneled right back into management talent to make sure they deliver a quality product (high utility, supportable by next contractor, quality docs, etc). Good management talent is hard to find and not something any government is known for. Consequently, next contractor probably has mondo ramp-up time deciphering what hacked pos the last guys put in with their c-team developers (cuz margins).

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#179

Post by spaetzleesser »

crummybowley wrote: post #22
tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

I have done some reading about people who got convicted wrongfully. Being released from US prison is an extremely bureaucratic and slow process where nobody seems to be willing to apply some judgement. As long as the process was followed everything is fine even if it’s blindingly obvious that the person is innocent.

Getting into prison is easy but getting out is really hard and will take you years even if everybody agrees a mistake was made.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#180

Post by km3r »

jacob2484 wrote: post #117
anchpop wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay each inmate $10k for each day they're unable to leave prison past one week after the end of their sentence. Most inmates probably wouldn't mind staying a couple months longer if it means they get to leave with a million dollars in the bank, and it would correct the state's incentives.

And just would pay this? You and I the taxpayers.... so no thanks to this solution.

And yet, the software may save more than a million dollars in admin costs. And as soon as the most of the bug are worked out, it can operate less of those payouts. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
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